How deep to make my crushed coral Bed???

[rkm]

I have the tank set up already 7 weeks. Curently I have 3/4's to an 1 in. of grushed coral in the tank. I did not go above the wood trim line on the outside of the tank. Is this not enough? Too much? I read somewhere in here that you don't even need anything on the floor. Is it just my pref?
Thanks
Ryan

 

[rockster]

Most people here advocate deep sand bed(seeded with live sand)of 4-6 inches...not crushed corals. This helps with biological processing of nitrogenous wastes, plus aethetically pleasing. You can go without sand in your display tank too if you have it in your sump and have plenty of live rocks (in the display tank). This makes it easier to siphon debris in the display tank and not much need for clean-up crew (you need these if you have DSB). Either way, just make sure you don't overfeed the fishies and do not overstock.
Macroalgae also helps.
BTW, did you get the replacement for you blue-spotted jawfish?

 

[rkm]

So I should get rid of the crushed coral. Is this something for a FO tank. I guess I chose wrong for a reef tank....I do not have a sump I only have a mag 350 pro. The sand isn't bad for canister filters. How does it get cleaned? Do you syphen out the waste on water changes?
I only lost a clown fish. I took it and the one still alive back to the LFS and he gave me a credit for the one that was still alive. I am going to wait a while to get the tank more stable before I try again.

 

[ruaround]

You can use CC if you want, 2 to 3 inches is fine. Just be sure not to overstock, overfeed and keep it vacuumed. There have been many successful systems in the past that have used CC, and there will continue to be in the future! You can have a clean - up crew in a system that uses CC. As far as how do you clean sand...by way of clean - up crew. There is no need to vacuum it, in fact it is not reccomended to stir it. A DSB can be very spendy, but there are alternatives to buying all LS.

 

[rkm]

I want to kinda get things strait in my head. In your best opinion. I should use live sand or a mixed live sand 2/3 in. for a sea bed. It does sound like it would look better.

 

[splash1914]

In my opinion, if you have the cash and time switch to live sand...

 

[rkm]

Wow you guys are giving me something to think about.
Acanthurus Pyroferus, 125#'s in a 75 gal tank. I definately do not have what I need in my tank.

 

[mb4000]

Your C/C of about 1 inch will be fine. clean it when you do your water changes and filter cleaning. Expect it to look dirty for ahwile until your tank matures. I personally don't like the look of a 4-6 inch DSB. I have a 1 inch sand bed and love how it looks. It is shallow enough to not cause some of the problems that DSB's have, and looks alot better than C/C I think. I stir it once a week ( takes 30 seconds ), and it stays sparkling white.

 

[sgt__york]

Is there a major difference in Crushed Coral and Seafloor (tons of small seashells)?? OR do they perform the same function of BUFFERING the water, but seashells are just more pleasing to look at?
I have a 75gal tank, and put in a 40lbs bag of seafloor. It covers the entire bottom about 1.5" thick. I kinda like the look of it, and it seems to keep the PH between 8.2 and 8.4.
The BENEFIT to Live Sand, as I understand it, is nitrate reduction. However, it seems to me, that a Macro-Algae refugium would be a much more efficient method of nitrate reduction.

 

[ruaround]

Originally posted by Acanthurus Pyroferus
Yep thats a lot of crush coral but I think its worth it! And believe it or not it will be going over an undergravel filter! I know most people think of UG filters in saltwater as taboo! Hey I used it for 6 years without hardly any problems so I am goin back with what I know works for me personally!
Im going on my 9th year with a UGF!!! I have yet to have a problem, years ago they were the way to go!!!IMO everything goes full circle, HELL bellbottoms and hiphuggers are back in !!!
I have a shallow sand bed, and im using a UGF in my reef, and CC and a UGF in my FOWLR, no problems with either!!! Good Luck with whatever you choose to do...and remember it is your $$$ and your tank...so it is YOUR choice.

 

[fshhub]

i have one question, what are the problems asociated with a dsb??
answer: NONE
adn if you make a dsb, i definitely reccomend 4 to 6 inches
and lastly, i HAVE used cc, ugf, dsb, mix of ccc and sand, lr and without lr PERSONALLY
my opinion is lr with a dsb is the way to go, much easier, and is not unsafe at all, adds to filtration, needs no cleaning or stirring(in fact should no tbe), adds shelter and diversity to the ecosystem i have built, not to mention stability by housing much more bacteria and also nitrate reduction done NATURALLY AND EFECTIVELY
now to htat i will add that it can be done without, and if i had the tank established(if it aint broke, why fix it, plus changing can cuse problems too if not done cautiously and with lots of preparation to insure no problems), i would not touch it if there were no problems, but if it were a young tank(new) or empty, i would use a dsb
HTH
oh yeah, for cc, i would only use about 1 inch or less too if it were cc(add no more, unless you really want too for appearances, if you think it would look better)

 

[jlem]

I think that the only problems with a DSB is that it takes up 4-6 inches of space, and I think look pretty bad against the glass. The glass gets grungy looking and very unappealing. If you like that look then you are right, there is no real problems with a DSB. I have a 90 gallon reef with lots of live rock and a 1 inch SB. I have never shown any nitrates at all and I have lots of critters that turn it over. Now if I had to much livestock for my live rock to handle the bioload then I would go with a DSB.

 

[sgt__york]

correct me if i'm wrong, but CC doesn't "CREATE" nitrates - it is inorganic as well. It simply allows for pieces of fish solid waste to get trapped below the larger gapped holes. This fish waste then slowly decays and releases ammonia into the water (converted to nitrates) thus ACTS as a heaver bio load.
HOWEVER, isn't that what crabs (cleanup crew) are for? This same waste falls to the sand - and crabs and worms eat it as well.
As I understand it, the biggest difference between the CC and live sand is the sand's ability to perform anaerobic work below the surface (when stirred enough by worms) thus converting nitriate to nitrogen gas and thus leaves the tank in gas form.
I do not see, that CC becomes a 'nitrate producer'. And if you enter a macro-algae refugium into the equation to convert nitrates (which handle a much higher nitrate load than sand can) - it becomes simply an issue of APPEARANCE instead of function.
Depends if you want to try to perform all the biological functions in 1 tank (Lr, Ls & sump), or if you like to specialize functions in multiple remote tanks (wet/dry & algae refugiums).
I tried Live Sand n the past, and when had a diatom outbreak - I found the sand extremely difficult to clean and the muck appearance really bothered me. I think it's just a matter of personal taste of tank appearance.

 

[fshhub]

if you use cc yes it can help some as a buffer for ph and alk, as well as calcium, but so can aragonite based sand, silica or quatz will not, and the reason it can, is because the coposition is the same
our dsb was work for the first couple of months, but as it amtured a bit, it got much easier, things take care of themselves, betweeen that and the rock
but as i have mentioned, both do work, IMHO dsb is easier and works more efficiently in some areas, and i would not change an existing tank without reason

 

[josh451]

I was wondering what type of creatures would be good for a clean up crew with CC in my 75 gallon FO?

 

[sgt__york]

Johs,
I have the same setup and just ordered my cleanup crew.
I ordered:
20 Astreas Snails (can turn themselves over)
10 Cerith Snails (can turn themselves over)
10 Trochas Snails (can turn themselves over)
*NOte: Turbo Grazers carried by most LFS can NOT turn themselves over - requiring u to purchase them much more often (Any wonder the LFS's carry them?
20 blue leg hermit crabs
10 scarlet crabs
4 emerald crabs
2 sally light foot crabs
I did this for a bit of diversity, and heartiness of species. This should cover most algea's, detris, diatom and sino. Ran just over $100 bucks shiped next day to the door.

 

[broomer5]

It's hard to say one substrate is better than another, unless we all have the same size tank, same type and number of fish and inverts, same feeding routine, same cleaning/maintenance habits, same filtration, same lighting and same water chemistry.
There is no way you can make comparisons between my tank and your tank or vice versa.
If all we do is debate one's choice in substrate depth and material used, without considering all of the other factors that affect each of our tanks individually - then this whole discussion becomes a matter of personal choice only.
There are way too many factors that come into play regarding a persons success or lack of success with a saltwater aquarium.
Substrate being just one of the pieces of the puzzle.

 

[ruaround]

Once again...broomer is the voice of reason...but if what youre saying is that substrate is just a little piece of the puzzle, then why is (almost) everyone jumping the DSB bandwagon...its worse than peeps jumpin the St. Louis Rams bandwagon...As stated before, UGF's with CC were the only way to go not just a few years ago. Dubbed nitrate factories now, I have NEVER had a problem with my 2 UGF's. I agree that system to system you cant compare...IMO the problem with UGF's and CC is the husbandry involved with them. Today most peeps are into instant gratification, want it all, want it now and no work involved. When you get right down to it...at some point the CC would become "live"...i have bristles, brine, copods, amphipods in mine...IMO the real problem is overstockin, over feeding, and lack of maintenance. You are right in the diversity of each and every tank...such as the ocean, it is not perfect everywhere all the time (not to say that isnt helped by humans )..................

 

[broomer5]

I agree ruaround,
I would like to add that even though the choice and type of substrate one uses is a piece of the puzzle ..... it can and in many cases is a very major piece.
I guess one of the biggest reason that so many people are moving to a living deep sand bed is because both experienced and inexperienced hobbyists are having such good results using them.
As I'm sure you know, people are finding that after a period of time from establishing a DSB in their tank(s), they have noticed a drop in nitrates. Or they have not noticed an increase.
All things being equal, DSB's may allow for denitrification to occur in folks tanks that may not have occured with their other choices of substrates.
The thing to remember is that "All things being equal" is a phrase we like to use to put everyone on an "equal" playing field ..... and in most cases, that is not always true with a marine/saltwater aquarium.
At any given time, aside from the hardware/equipment, very few things are actually equal between two tanks.
I also agree with your statement about tank husbandry. I'm sure there are people out there like yourself, with CC and/or UGF's that do the necessary things to keep these tanks healthy. I'm also sure that there are people that have made poor choices, have overstocked tanks, feed way too much and have a DSB in place ..... but are not seeing the results they expected.
Having a deep sand bed does not guarantee success.
Having a crushed coral substrate does not guarantee poor results.
I've chosen to run my tanks with deep sand beds, and I'm finding it much easier to maintain them, with less need to do water changes to lower my nitrates.
But I've also changed some other factors, mainly my feeding routine and setting up an algae refugium as well, that I'm sure are parts of the puzzle.
I'm a fan of DSB's
I like the way mine are working in my tanks, but they are still young and not fully matured. My nitrates are the lowest they have ever been.
I look for anything that will help me be more successful with my tanks, that allow me more time to enjoy looking and not working.
I'm glad your having such good luck with your set up.

 

[sgt__york]

Broomer,
Just curious - how long have you had your DSB (as compared to another substrate form?) What nitrate levels woud you say you averaged? How often were you doing a water change due to nitrate concerns?
You mentioned your nitrates are the lowest they have ever been. You also mentioned the use of a algae refugium. I can't help but wonder how much THAT piece of the puzzle is the reason for the "lowest nitrate levels ever."
I have read many ppl say they had nitrate levels of 20 and 30ppm on avg - and refugiums lowered them to almost undetectable. It seems to me, that the algae refugium is the most efficient method of nitrate removal - and i've heard very LITTLE rebuttle to tihs point, or experiences of failure to this point.
This isn't to question the DSB, i'm just wondering since all things are equal on YOUR tank - what observable changes have taken place since you added the refugium - and what the situation was without it (yet with the DSB).
I tried the DSB once before (albeit i likely made mistakes and had other issues on the tank that contributed to my failure with it). I've had a glass bottom - which obviously was the EASIEST to take care of - and actually had the MOST success with it. However, I really don't care for the look of it - THUS choose the argonite seaflor (small shells) - for purposes of having a substrate AND buffering. Without adding any buffer, it seems to maintain my ph at 8.2-8.4.
I've heard other with DSB's always fighting to keep their PH levels above 7.8. And likewise, i've heard others with CC substrates that only cleaned their substrate once or twice a year - and did water changes every 2-3 months (as the nitrates warranted).
But again - as you said, NOT all things are equal. They could have had algae helping to reduce the nitrates and had a low stocked tank. I know my nitrates (after initial cycling) went DOWN from 20 to 10ppm after I began to get some algae in the tank. I do not have a tang OR cleanup crew to help manage it yet - so the benefit has been lowered Nitrate levels.
As that seems to be the "primary" benefit of DSB (lower nitrates) if such results are more than compensated by using an algae refugium (especially if a DSB is used within the refugium as well) - it sounds like it falls into pure personal choice.
It really sounds to me - that the question is do you want as much filtering done in "ONE" tank - verses having 2-3 remote tanks specializing in various filtering methods (ie, wet/dry & refugium). That question determines much of the filtering methods and items you must use to accomplish that.