Hypo, nonCycled Tank, leaving for 5 days??? HELLLLLLP

[jwhiteuwc]

OK,
My first 3 fish came down with ICH about 3 weeks ago and have been in Hypo for 4 weeks on the 20th of April. Since it was an emergancy the tank is NON-CYCLED and I have been keeping it in a NON-CYCLED state for the 3 weeks with 70% water changes every other day.
Here's PROBLEM 1:
ON April 22nd I'm leaving for 5 days. With the Non-cycled tank running, in 5 days Ammonia will spike so bad that it will probably kill all the fish. Here's what I was thinking.
Scenerio 1 for Problem 1:
On April 16th, 27 days into HYPO in my QT, I begin to start raising Salinity. Meanwhile draining 5 gallons a day from the Display tank and keeping those 5 gallons in buckets. ON the 22nd (the day I leave), Have the Salinity up to Display tank peramiters. ON the 22nd, remove all water in QT tank and replace with the reserved 29 gallons from my Display. The display will then have been Fishless for 30 days and should be ICH free. QT tank will now be up to 1.025 (display water) and will be cycled. I'm sure a mini cycle will happen, but shouldn't kill the fish in 5 days... RIGHT?
Scenerio 2 for problem 1:
I'm guessing this isn't Ideal and probably chancing it big time.
Remove all water from QT tank on the day I leave. This will remove any and all ammonia and bac.
On the 25th, Sunday night, 3 days without water changes, have someone dose with Amquel or Ammonia Lock2, probably Ammonia Lock 2 as Amquel removes Ammonia, but it will be back the next day. This will detoxify all ammonia. on MOnday, dose with another dosage of AmmonLock2 to be safe.
Tuesday Morning, dose with Amquel to remove what Ammonia is in there. Tuesday night (day 5 without water changes) I'll be returning late, do a water complete water change as soon as I get home and start raising salinity.
PROBLEM 2:
Not only do I have 3 fish with ICH, SWF.COM shipped me a fish that either caught ICH from some of my water or was shipped with ICH. I tried to have the fish held so I can QT all my current fish with ICH first, but there was a miscommmunication with SWF.com and I, so I now am dealing with it. Again I had to setup another 10 gallon uncycled QT tank to house him in.
HERE'S the problem, My new fish is still showing ICH signs (spots), but has been in hypo for 5 days or so. They look to be falling off and he should have no visible signs of ICH when I leave.
Since he'll only be in Hypo status for a total of 10 days on the 16th and 16 days on the 22nd (day I leave), this one's harder.
Here's my scenerios:
This fish is a Flame angel and needs ideal water qaultiy.
My thoughts on this one are:
Scenerio 1: ONce all Visible signs of ICH are going, complelete drain 10 gallon QT and start raising salinity up to 1.025 (display tank per.) By the 22nd (day I leave) I should have the 2nd QT up to 1.025, drain QT, remove 10 gallons of water from Display, put that water into QT. This water is cycled and very high quality. Again a mini cycle will probably happen, but if I have my someone dose with Amquel or Ammolock2 will I'm gone I should be OK.
Once I get back, start the HYPO process again back down to 1.009 for the 4 weeks.
SOOO what are eveyones thoughts?
If you were me, what Scenerio would you take?
Please advise, cuz I don't want to end up coming home to dead fish.
:help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

 

[elfdoctors]

I've just returned from my conference. I only have a little time tonight as I got killed today on my return to the clinic.
Problem 1: If your fish have been in hypo for 27 days (assuming your fish have been free of symptoms for 21 days) before you bring up the salinity, why not just put them into your display tank? They would be far safer in a cycled tank.
Doing the complete water change sounds like a lot of work for not much benefit.
Ideally, you should keep the fish in the QT for observation for another week before adding to the display tank. However, the worse thing that would happen is that you find your fish are still infected (hopefully <2% probability, assuming you were faithful in keeping the salinity down) and you would have to treat them again.
Originally posted by jwhiteuwc
but if I have my someone dose with Amquel or Ammolock2 will I'm gone I should be OK.
Problem 2: If you have the ability to have someone continue to dose with Amquel this would probably be the safest thing to do while you are gone. If this person can do a water change, having them do a water change might be nice also. From the quote above, such a person exists, right?? You would hopefully be able to tell them how much topoff water had to be added and how to keep the pH regulated. Possibly this person would do a water change with some premixed 1.009 water. As long as you are using Amquel, water changes are probably not needed as frequently as someone who is using water changes alone to manage ammonia.
You might also consider moving this fish into your larger, partially-cycled tank which would now be empty from Problem 1.
I have been impressed from your saga so far that Amquel does seem to help. I have no experience with this product and was somewhat skeptical. It probably only has value for emergency situations like yours but it is good to know it works. I'm particularly impressed to hear your flame angel survived ammonia toxicity. You are learning to be a good aquarist!
One final thought and story: I also purchased a flame angel from swf.com around the same time as yours. Shortly after it was introduced into the QT, I noticed three white spots on it. I was very worried about the possibility of ich when I saw these. I watched the fish closely before I left. The fish (and its companion in the QT) were both eating well and the spots did not seem to be progressing before I left so I decided not to touch the salinity as I figured that the fish would not die in a week from a very light infestation. On my return last night, both fish seem to be in pristine health (in spite of no food for 9 days). My 21 days of QT are up tomorrow but I am thinking about watching them for a few days longer then I usually do to make sure that the spots are truly gone. Having a cycled QT available has been a godsend when I left town. I am wondering whether the three white spots (just on the fins) may have been caused from the small trauma associated with shipment and netting the fish. I also decided to watch these for a little while as they looked coarser and more brightly white colored then when I battled my prior ich infection (which looks more like typical Morton's salt granules).
Once again I find that rarely is it necessary to treat every change as an emergency. I also wonder whether many of the so-called "cures" from products such as Greenex, Rid Ich, etc, may have been successful because they were treating a problem that was going to get better on its own anyway. Just speculation on my part, but it does make you wonder.
None of the 7 fish that I have purchased from swf.com have had any diseases.

 

[krowleey]

One final thought and story: I also purchased a flame angel from swf.com around the same time as yours. Shortly after it was introduced into the QT, I noticed three white spots on it.
if you didnt treat it, id bet if you added them to your display the stress would cause the parasites to drop off for a new ich cycle. JMO from alot of reading about ich. seems alot of studies show what ppl think is a parasite free tank they scrape the side of the fish and under the microscope there are parasites present. The fish wouldnt get an outbreak of ich unless some form of stress caused the parasite to wake up and decide it was time for a new host. i know its all debated, and fact is we currently dont have a perfect remedy for ich, hypo or not.

 

[jwhiteuwc]

Thanks ElfDoctors, I'm taking your advise and moving my 3 fish back into the display. Then moving my poor old flame angle into the larger QT.
Talk about bad luck. My Flame angel came down with PopEye (Bac. Infection), so I went out and purchased seom marcaylen-two to cure it, well 2 days later he has dropsy.... I just can't win.
I'm still medicating him with Marcaylen - two, but it's not looking good. I've been medicating for 4 days and no progress.
He's now swimming sideways and not eating very much. He's very bloated from dropsy, I sure hope he makes it, but I'm not really counting on it. I've been doing daily water changes with aged saltwater that I normaly user for the display, also no results.
Thanks for all the help.

 

[elfdoctors]

Originally posted by krowleey
if you didnt treat it, id bet if you added them to your display the stress would cause the parasites to drop off for a new ich cycle.
What would I treat? I'm not even sure I have a disease. :notsure:
It certainly wasn't ich as it looked decidedly different from the classic case I had before. If it was another ectoparasite, it certainly doesn't seem to be pathogenic. The fish continues to do well. I am going to keep it in QT for a total of 4 weeks because I wasn't able to observe it for the week I was away. If there are any microscopic parasites present, I will trust that my cleaner shrimp and neon goby will dispense with them. I certainly see no signs of disease at this time.
IMO, treatment in this situation is probably more harmful then any possible disease.
jwhiteuwc good luck with your fish.
The maracyn 2 was a good choice for popeye (although improving your water quality would also help considerably). Hopefully the flame will perk up now that it has a larger tank. The popeye may have been the straw that broke the camel's back after the stress of fighting ich and ammonia toxicity. These stresses should be improving so hopefully the fish will get better. Unfortunately, I don't have any other suggestions for you.
Good Luck on your trip!

 

[jwhiteuwc]

Thanks, but as of last night the Flame Angel is now in Fishy heaven. :-(. I think just to much for the little guy to handle. ICH, Popeye, and Dropsy (he was pretty bloated). Notice this morning he wasn't breathing.
Arg.... I really liked that fish. Well, when the QT tank is completely cycled I'm going to order another one.
Thanks for all the help Elfdoctors, you've been very helpful.

 

[elfdoctors]

Sorry to hear of your loss.

About the only consolation I can give is that you won't have to worry about keeping it in an uncycled tank while you are gone.
I hope your other fish are now healed and stay healthy. You won't regret having a cycled QT for any new arrivals.
BTW, some people suggest that flame angels be among the last fish added into a display tank because they can sometimes become aggressive. Mine is certainly quite bold and does not hide among the PVC pipe pieces in my QT like most of the tank's previous occupants. I really like my flame angel but I wouldn't make it my first new purchase. I am about finished with stocking my tank.
Good Luck on your trip!