I am now soooo confused

[klongo]

Okay, We thought we were going to upgrade my 33 gal almost cycled tank to a 90 or 125, I finally got a recommendation for a local LFS so we went to take a look and now I am SOOO confused.
I figured that all I needed was a new tank, hood, light and stand, so off we went.
I had planned on LR and some activated sand along with a skimmer.
The guy at the store said - NO WAY! Don't use LR, use a mechanical bio filter, a UV sterilizer, an overflow tank, etc, etc, - an additional huge amount of $$$$$
His reasoning kinda made sense, so please help!--
He said that if your fish get sick, the best treatments are copper - which you can't put in a LR tank (my answer- that's what a QT is for?)
His answer- very hard to catch fish in a tank with LR - especially if they're sick and hiding.
He kinda convinced my husband so now, no new big tank unless I can convince him that I don't need all that stuff!
Thanks again!:scared:

 

[warlockgp]

Convince him, convince him................
Most LFS workers are on it for the money............
If it was so bad, then why would a lot of people here recommend LR and DSBs for filtration.............
I wish my spouse, if i was married, would help me out.
Im a mostly a newbie but LR and DSBs seem the way to go. Besides, aren't you gonna need/use rock to decorate your tank? Why not use rock that would look Bad A$$ and help out with filtration...........

 

[rockies]

I agree with your instincts. The LFS is trying to sell stuff to you. Of course you might need more mechanical filtration for your larger tank and more water movement equipment (power heads), but the recommendation against LR sounds fairly ludicrous to me.

 

[debra w-c]

A QT is a Quarentine Tank. It's a smaller simple tank maybe
(5-10 gallon tank)(depending on the type of fish you get). You would set this tank up and would put all new fish in this tank for 4-6 weeks before putting in your main tank. This way if there is a sign of disease you can easily treat the fish and not worry about infecting your main tank. I would recommend that you only QT one of two fish at a time.
Invertebrates, crabs, snails, shrimps can go right into your tank without QT after your tank is cycled. DO NOT dump water from the fish store into your tank.
A QT tank is very important and much more reliable then just a UV sterilizer ( won't effectively kill bad things and may kill things you want). AND most people want invertebrates, crabs, snails, seastars etc. Once you use copper in a tank you can not get it out of the rock or substrate. This means you could never add inverts to this tank. That's way you only put medicine in the QT tank.
I love my live rock. You can use the live rock to cycle your tank.
I would go with live rock (good biological filter and is very interesting).
To cycle tank all you need is to set up the tank and put live rock in the water. In 4 weeks your tank should be fully cycled. Then perform a large water change. Maybe 30%-50% to bring nitrates down. Then your new fish will be done with QT (if no signs of diseases show up requiring treatment) and you can add them to your main tank.
NEVER ADD anything to your main tank without QT for 4-6 weeks!
Read other posts. You will eventually get a fish that will develop ich and if this gets in your tank you will have to treat with copper or hyposalinity.
Remember the LFS guy is in this for the $.
Ultimately, it's your decision. But I love my shrimp, crabs, seastars etc and I'm sure you willl to.
Post any further questions!:cheer:

 

[warlockgp]

Oh yeah, a wet/dry would be good. Custom make it though, it feel better when you show it.
If your tank is acryllic you can go nuts like i will pretty soon with plumbing. Add a close loop for water movement and ditch some powerheads and stuff like that.
I'm an addict, i need help............

 

[schneidts]

Sounds to me like the salesperson is trying to do just that- sell. I have a very, very hard time trusting the recommendations of a LFS. The benefits of LR and LS far outweigh not having them. Can't agree with the uv sterilizer either, but thats just me. Would definitely get a protein skimmer, also. HTH- Good Luck.:happyfish

 

[robn70]

The local fish store is trying to talk you into stuff you don't need to make a sale. That is why I just use them for livestock. I would go with either the 90 or 125 gal tank and a couple of bags of southdown sand from Home Depot add the live rock a skimmer in the sump and some decent lighting and your off to a good start. I found that I have learned more from this web site than from talking with any of the local fish stores.

 

[birdy]

The one thing I would recommend to you when purchasing a large tank, is to buy one with built in overflows. These overflows send the water to a sump under the tank. In the sump you can house your skimmer, and heaters. Of course you can do this with a HOB overflow, but the built in ones are so much better.
As far as filtration, LR and LS is the absolutely best form of biological filtration you can get, you do not need a uv sterilizer, and you should get a good protein skimmer (this will cost you a bit). I also highly recommend a refugium (this can also be housed under the tank and can be made very cheaply with a spare tank or rubbermaid cont).
There are plenty of cost saving things you can do (base rock, southdown sand) and there are things that you should spend the money on (good skimmer, nice tank). There are tons of DIY projects you can do on sumps and refugiums
I would also like to add that I think tanks without LR are sterile and unhealthy for the fish.

 

[klongo]

Thanks everyone. I've decided to go with the reef-ready 125 gallon from the LFS. 200 pounds of southdown seeded with some GARF grunge - not sure that I need to seed it with their recommended $200 worth, but I think I will at least double what I was going to use in the 33 gallon.
I'll have 60 pounds of base rock and 90 pounds of LR. I'll use teh water from my almost cycled tank and add a few more cocktail shrimp into the mix.
I've got to do some research now on sumps, etc and look into a better skimmer for a tank this size. Am I correct that I don't need the skimmer just yet - nothing to skim? My current one isn't even turned on yet.

 

[fshhub]

DSB with LR and a skimmer, definitely
teh 33 you have could work very effectively for either a QT tank or a sump, your choice. I would have both with a large tank like that. QT tanks are very simple and easy to set up. Remember that if you QT your fish first, your odds of needing to treat them in the main tank(if everything is taken care of properly and conservatively stocked) goes way down. To almost nothing. The method he is trying to sell you is much less natural, much more expensive and requires more work in the long run.
The modified berlin method(LR, DSB and skimmer) requires very little work, other than regular water changes, and is fairly self maintainign. cleaning is doen by your criters, and disease is dealt with inside of another tank. NO prolem. Trust me, the lfs sells many systems like that and many do succeed with them. Howver their systems do not thrive as well and it costs much more. AND for every 10 people who listen to their LFS, there are 100s more who do their own research and go with either our preferred method or something similar. AND out of those 10, probably 5 or 6 who are serious wind up redoing thngs in the long run. Bigger tanks are easier to care for and with teh LFS's other method they become more work and much more money.
Remember, our goal is to build a mini eco-system for our buddies inside. Not to build a complicated mechanical structure that we have to take apart and clean all the time just so we can be happy. Lets make them happier thus reducing our chances of disease even more.

 

[robn70]

Here is a link to article on sumps..Hope it helps some.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.htm

 

[debra w-c]

If you buy live rock and live sand you don't need to use cocktail shrimp.
There will be plenty of ammonia from the what dies off on the rock to cycle your tank.
You didn't mention a QT tank. Please be sure to look into the benefits of QT'ing all new fish. It's much easier then trying to pull a sick fish out of your main tank....

 

[klongo]

I'm planning on cycling with shrimp and then adding LR - so as not to have as much die off on the LR.
Definitely planning a QT - don't want to use my 33 though - not enough room in my home. How small can I use? would a 5 or 10 work for small to medium fish? as my fish get larger, I could worry about that in the future?

 

[klongo]

I'm planning on cycling with shrimp and then adding LR - so as not to have as much die off on the LR.
Definitely planning a QT - don't want to use my 33 though - not enough room in my home. How small can I use? would a 5 or 10 work for small to medium fish? as my fish get larger, I could worry about that in the future?

 

[dburr]

His answer- very hard to catch fish in a tank with LR - especially if they're sick and hiding.
This is alittle backwards thinking. If a fish has no hiding places it's bound to get sick from stress. LR is not only is a filter. The fish will hide in it, get away from other pesty fish and feed off of it. (algae, sponges, ect...)
What is his answer to what to fill it with if not LR?:thinking:
You can use smaller tanks. It depends also on the size of the fish, use good judgment. Remember, the fish is only in there temporaraly. (I think I spelled that wrong )
Dan

 

[karajay]

Originally posted by klongo
How small can I use? would a 5 or 10 work for small to medium fish? as my fish get larger, I could worry about that in the future?
This depends on the type of fish you are planning. Tangs, for example, appreciate the extra swimming space even when they're small. It's also harder to keep decent water chemistry in a small tank. And new fish are usually stressed enough already.

 

[klongo]

The answer to what to fill the tank with is fake rock - looks nice - and you can then treat your tank with copper - the BEST way to treat illness - so he says.
I had pretty much come to the same conclusion you all have- he's trying to make money! He outright told us that they make no profit on the tank - all the money is in the filters, UV, etc. I just wanted to make sure that his reasons really didn't have a lot of validity - he's a good salesman, it sounded good!

 

[fshhub]

funny thing is, there is a good chance he even believes it. Most LFS's dont and have not taken the time to do things properly.

 

[shoogieboo]

i have a 100g with live rock and a cleaner crew...i have one yellow tang that is showing signs of ich. if i took him out and did a qt for treatment, is it true that my mt would be ich free in about 3 to 4 weeks due to no hosts for the ich to survive on? i made the mistake of not qt my tang before and i would like to clear this up before i put any other fish and of course they will be qt in the future,,,