I goofed big time....

[sunrays]

Well, I introduced ich to my reef tank......what a bummer. I never performed a QT and I am now payiong the price.....

I pulled all the fish (see below) and will use this as an opportunity to redesign the reef and do some cleaning.
So this is what I am doing for treatment:
1) Set up a 29gal QT...bare bottom, HOB Bio Wheel Filter, Couple of Live Rocks for hiding, heater, and light. I have just a few fish and the are small right now (Pigmy Cherub Angel, Very Small Hippo Tang, Very Small Yellow Tang, Flame Hawk, and a baby Maroon Clown)
2) I pulled water from the reef tank to bypass cycling.
3) I am going to try the Hyposalinity method.
Now here is my question: After the necessary time period of treatment (I hope I don't lose any fish....the ich is very minimal right now) I will re-introduce the fish back to the reef. By having the fish out of the reef for the treatment does this automatically rid the display tank of the infestation because there are no host fish available? Someone told me that ich is always present and will only manifest itself when the fish are stressed (I don't believe that)

However....does ich go dormant without hosts or will it die off? :help: :help:

 

[corally]

I think the ich will die without a host after 30 days, but I'm sure others will chime in.

 

[jer4916]

i think you did ALOT of extra work, ich shouldn't be a problem in your tank if your water is good. Keep good water quality and the ich should take care of itself...pulling the fish around and moving everything around is whats more likely to kill them than anything...it adds to the stress...and ich is mostly stress related.
ich isn't as bad as people think it to be.

 

[nemo's mom]

Found this on my quest. Hope this helps:
Marine Ich, an infestation of Cryptocaryon irritans, is one of the two most common afflictions of saltwater fish; the other being Marine Velvet caused by Amyloodinium sp. (Michael, 2002 and Joshi, 2003). In this two-part series, I will explain some of the biology of this ciliated parasite and discuss the multitude of treatments, remedies, cures, and elixirs that have been put forth to save your fish and sometimes empty your wallet. My hope is to help you wade through the copious and often erroneous anecdote to find an effective treatment that best suits your particular needs and that of your fishes.
Before you can decide on a treatment, you need to be fairly certain what is the infectious agent of the fish. Some of the signs of infection with Cryptocaryon irritans are rubbing or scratching against decorations or substrate (this behavior is also known as glancing or flashing), breathing problems, an increased mucous layer, loss of appetite, abnormal swimming behavior, frayed fins, cloudy eyes, and, of course, the telltale white spots. These characteristic spots are usually described as appearing like small grains of salt stuck to the body of the fish. Even in the presence of all of these external signs, the best diagnostic tool is microscopic examination of fresh fin or gill clippings or skin scrapings. But, realistically, an extremely small number of us are ever going to perform this kind of differential diagnosis, myself included.
This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen, and overcrowding are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of stress, but I find it more appropriate to think of all of these as wholly unnatural conditions. In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild, and even more unlikely to be lethal (Bunkley-Williams & Williams, 1994). Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts.
Host Susceptibility:
Cryptocaryon irritans has demonstrated a very low level of host specificity, meaning it will infect just about any teleost fish in a tropical marine environment. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks and rays) appear resistant, but everything else is susceptible to infection (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It has even been proven to infect various species of freshwater fish that were acclimated to saltwater, as well as temperate marine fish that were kept at the upper limit of their thermal range (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994; Burgess & Matthews, 1995).
Even though they are all possible hosts, experience has shown that there are definitely certain fish groups with higher and lower degrees of susceptibility. At one end of the spectrum are the eels that have shown a general resistance to Cryptocaryon irritans. On the opposite side are the surgeonfishes, with the Blue Regal/Hippo Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) the "crowned king of Ich." I have dealt with literally hundreds of these fish, and I could probably count on one hand the number of Blue Regal Tangs that appeared to be completely free of infection. I would also place the cowfish, boxfish, and pufferfish fairly high on the susceptibility list. Generally, everything else falls somewhere in the middle.

 

[nemo's mom]

Biology:
The lifecycle of the parasite is interesting and important to understand when evaluating a treatment. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish. After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).
Many hobbyists are fooled into believing they have cured their fish of the parasites, only to find Ich present again on fish a few weeks later; a reason why following through with a full treatment protocol is so important. Don't make this mistake and be lulled into a false sense of security. The parasites may be in a stage where they are merely regrouping and multiplying for their "next offensive." In the wild, this sort of massive reproductive phase ensures that a few will find a suitable host to continue on the cycle. In the close confines of our aquariums, though, it means comparatively massive infection rates.
There is another interesting observation I found in my investigations concerning the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans. Mature trophonts leave the host and tomites exit the theront/cyst in the dark (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994). Imagine if you will, a fish that randomly acquires a single Ich parasite. After a couple of days when the trophont is well fed, it prepares to drop off its host but waits for the environmental trigger of darkness. Meanwhile, the fish prepares to "bed down" in its favorite hiding spot in the aquarium; the same fish occupy the same spot practically every night. Now, the trophont leaves the fish, encysts, and begins to multiply. Several days to weeks go by and that same fish returns to its same spot at night, only this time there are hundreds of infectious theronts seeking out a host/victim in the same area. I am sure some of you are thinking that this is absolutely diabolical. Others can appreciate the simple beauty of this plan. To me, it is just another reminder of how remarkable evolution and adaptation is.
Given all of this "planning," it seemed strange to me to read that not all the theronts will be able to find a host. Actually, given ideal laboratory conditions, only between five and twenty percent succeed, but that still adds up to an awful lot of parasites. Given this kind of infection rate and the rate of reproduction, the total number of parasites can increase approximately ten times every week (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).
Concerning taxonomy, Cryptocaryon is currently still a monotypic genus (meaning there is only one species in this genus). Although, there is research to suggest that there may actually be several distinct species. There are at least various isolates from different geographic regions; even if their differences are not substantial enough to warrant designating separate species (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). I, and several of my friends in the business, can testify that there are marked increases in Cryptocaryon irritans outbreaks and mortalities when mixing fish from the Caribbean with those of the Indo-Pacific. It is possible that this higher incidence in problems could be the result of fish that have evolved a limited immunity against their native variety coming into contact with an unfamiliar strain of parasite.
.

 

[anthonynyc]

Originally Posted by Sunrays
3) I am going to try the Hyposalinity method.
Now here is my question: After the necessary time period of treatment (I hope I don't lose any fish....the ich is very minimal right now) I will re-introduce the fish back to the reef. By having the fish out of the reef for the treatment does this automatically rid the display tank of the infestation because there are no host fish available? Someone told me that ich is always present and will only manifest itself when the fish are stressed (I don't believe that)

However....does ich go dormant without hosts or will it die off? :help: :help:
Good choice going with the hypo method. I did and it worked perfectly.
Yes, it will rid the display tank of ICK since they cannot host. I would leave the fish in hypo for at least a month but more like 6 weeks just to be sure.
Ick is not always present, I think that is a misconception. I've noticed ICK will attack certain fish first, especially stressed ones.
I doubt you are going to lose any fish. I tackled it early just as you did.
Anthony

 

[anthonynyc]

Originally Posted by Jer4916
i think you did ALOT of extra work, ich shouldn't be a problem in your tank if your water is good. Keep good water quality and the ich should take care of itself...pulling the fish around and moving everything around is whats more likely to kill them than anything...it adds to the stress...and ich is mostly stress related.
ich isn't as bad as people think it to be.
You have a lot of posts but are you speaking from experience on this one? Can you tell me a little about your setup? Do you have a QT Tank? Did you ever have fish with ICK and if you did, is this how you dealt with them.
I disagree with your statement above but then again, you might have had an experience to prove what you are saying hence the questions...
Thanks,
Anthony

 

[jer4916]

Originally Posted by AnthonyNYC
You have a lot of posts but are you speaking from experience on this one? Can you tell me a little about your setup? Do you have a QT Tank? Did you ever have fish with ICK and if you did, is this how you dealt with them.
I disagree with your statement above but then again, you might have had an experience to prove what you are saying hence the questions...
Thanks,
Anthony

Anyone with experience will agree with me. Ich is a problem people shouldn't get. It comes strictly from stress or user error. I personally yes have gotten ich in my tank when i first started and still to this day have small out breaks from time to time. It goes away. If you keep your water perfect you shouldn't have a problem.
what i do for perfect water:
RO/DI unit
UV sterilzer
Medical Grade water goes in.
UV kills any crypt that may be free floating in water.
i haven't had an ich outbreak in 2 months (i added some new fish) ..after three days problem went away.
Heck....im not trying to be cocky or mean or anything... but i have 4 TANGS in my tank which get ich more than any other fish.... and they are all PERFECT.
1. Naso
1. Blue Hippo
1. Sail Fin
1. Kole Tang

 

[anthonynyc]

Originally Posted by Jer4916
Anyone with experience will agree with me. Ich is a problem people shouldn't get. It comes strictly from stress or user error. I personally yes have gotten ich in my tank when i first started and still to this day have small out breaks from time to time. It goes away. If you keep your water perfect you shouldn't have a problem.
what i do for perfect water:
RO/DI unit
UV sterilzer
Medical Grade water goes in.
UV kills any crypt that may be free floating in water.
i haven't had an ich outbreak in 2 months (i added some new fish) ..after three days problem went away.
Heck....im not trying to be cocky or mean or anything... but i have 4 TANGS in my tank which get ich more than any other fish.... and they are all PERFECT.
1. Naso
1. Blue Hippo
1. Sail Fin
1. Kole Tang
Thanks for the response and the advice.
From my understanding, Ick does not lie dormant in a tank waiting for fishes to stress and then infect them. From my understanding, it is a parasite that is usually introduced into a new tank with infected fishes or infected water. That's why we need to quarantine the fishes.
Is that correct?
Glad to see you have so many tangs and no ICK. I now have 2 tangs and just got rid of a small outbreak of ICK so when I have questions, you will be on my list!!!
Thanks again,
Anthony

 

[jer4916]

Originally Posted by AnthonyNYC
Thanks for the response and the advice.
From my understanding, Ick does not lie dormant in a tank waiting for fishes to stress and then infect them. From my understanding, it is a parasite that is usually introduced into a new tank with infected fishes or infected water. That's why we need to quarantine the fishes.
Is that correct?
Glad to see you have so many tangs and no ICK. I now have 2 tangs and just got rid of a small outbreak of ICK so when I have questions, you will be on my list!!!
Thanks again,
Anthony

Ich is something that lives inside each animal, so no matter if you bring it in or not it is in your tank. Reminder : swf are caught in the wild. So it is in them, just like the flu is inside humans. Now the ich can over power the animal and cause it to get sick if its stressed. Ich then will fall off the fish, lay dormat in the sand/rock/coral..etc for a period of time, then once mature the eggs will explode sending out more ich into the tank, if the fish are healthy then there is nothing to worry about there bodys will fight it off...if they are stressed out it will over take them and kill them...or bring them down until they're able to fight it off. Ich is a very basic bug that 90% of marine people have problems with...over time you'll learn not to freak out over it...its not that big of deal, rarely will it kill your whole tank. Only times that really happens is if the person running the tank is new or case 2 completely retarded.
just keep your water quality where it should be
feed correctly
keep your temp stable (heater/chiller)
dont stress your fish out.
~Chris

 

[sunrays]

No offense but I know your thoughts on the biology of ich are incorrect. There is much credible scientific data to disprove your theory on ich being always present and a manifestation of fish being stressed, and poor water quality. Here is an excellent article to prove my point: also sites actual scientific studies on how the ich life cycle can be truly broken:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

 

[jer4916]

ok, but ask anyone of those scientists if perfect water is need in a reef, and they will tell you.
I know i run my tank by those rules and my tank does not have problems
keep in mind i get my info from the guy who ran the New orleans public aquarium as well as the las vegas aquarium...
what does he know?!
lol
listen to what you want. i dont care. but know ich is inside every animal.
its common knowledge

 

[jc78240]

I also disagree with chris. I used to believe that perhaps with a "perfect system" ich would not be a problem, but I was proven wrong, and wil start to use a quarantine system we each new fish addition, after I finish my hyposalin treatment with my current infestation of ich. I believe 99.9% of beths advice and appreciate her help and knowledge. In addition the flu , which is an influnza virus is not normally found in our bodies, unless we have an active case of the flu in which case we would hope our body fights it and gets rid of it so we can continue to live.

 

[kingspade]

Originally Posted by Jer4916
Ich is something that lives inside each animal, so no matter if you bring it in or not it is in your tank. Reminder : swf are caught in the wild. So it is in them, just like the flu is inside humans. Now the ich can over power the animal and cause it to get sick if its stressed. Ich then will fall off the fish, lay dormat in the sand/rock/coral..etc for a period of time, then once mature the eggs will explode sending out more ich into the tank, if the fish are healthy then there is nothing to worry about there bodys will fight it off...if they are stressed out it will over take them and kill them...or bring them down until they're able to fight it off. Ich is a very basic bug that 90% of marine people have problems with...over time you'll learn not to freak out over it...its not that big of deal, rarely will it kill your whole tank. Only times that really happens is if the person running the tank is new or case 2 completely retarded.
just keep your water quality where it should be
feed correctly
keep your temp stable (heater/chiller)
dont stress your fish out.
~Chris
i had ich take my whole tank, but then again im like not even 2 months into this hobby i was pretty lost when it happened, i didnt know what to do. i know now i need a QT tank.

 

[sunrays]

Chris, I am not disputing the need for excellent water quality for the health of the reef tank. However, I do not believe that not so perfect water causes ich. As far as getting your info from "the guy" who "ran" a couple public aquariums... I would be shocked to hear that these institutions do not run QT for the exact purpose of avoiding releasing ich and other pathogens into their displays. If they didn't run QT it could be the reason why you used the past tense when referring to the guy who RAN these institutions....maybe he didn't know his stuff after all. Or perhaps he was involved when the ich life cycle wasn't fully understood....either way this information is false and should not be spread around as gospel.....you are doing the newbies a big disservice.
Also, ich inside every animal is not common "knowledge".....it's a common misconception. The Ich life cycle is extremely well documented by actual biologist....I believe in the scientific method over common knowledge any day of the week.

 

[jamie814]

That is incorrect that ick is in every fish. It must be introduced to the fish by some other means. And yes it is curable hypo and copper are proven ways to kill it for good. You will never have ick in your display as long as all fish are quarantined and treated before hand and any new additions other than fish are also quarantined so that it runs it life cycle and dies off. Ick can live on any surface including in the water through out it's life cycle BUT without a fish host it's life cycle will be broken and the parasite will die. This is why it is important to keep it from ever entering your display tank in the fist place. In simple it is best to treat all new fish before introducing them in the tank and quarantine all other new specimens for a period of 4-6 weeks (typical lifecycle of ick). Ick will not affect anything but fish but it will travel with or on other specimens. Hope this helps clear things up a bit.