I need lighting experts

posiden

posiden

Active Member
Okay, my question is......
Can anyone tell me the aprox. PAR value in the ocean where the corals are at?
What I mean is, from what I can find the sun puts an aprox. of 400-700 PAR at the surface. We all know saltwater is very efficent at filtering out light. Now on melves site he has done research on PAR values in his tank. The 250 watt Ice Cap ballast with a 10000K radium bulb gave him a PAR of 680 at the surface. Not to bad right, I mean that is pretty darn close. So what I am wondering is, is this really necssary? Our tanks are not that deep. I don't ever recall anyone scuba diving in 24" of water.
I just can't wrap my mind around why we put so much light on our tanks. If the lighting values decrease so much with every foot of water depth then the light can't be that intense in the ocean. I wonder if we use light to make up for our lack of food that is available in our systems.
Any thoughts...........
 
saltfan

saltfan

Active Member
Well for what its worth. Being a person who has tested the lighting theory. With 400 watts of PC over a 6' tank, its just not enough. Even Kenya Trees don't do well. But, when you use metal halides (175 x 3 ) over the same area, you see alot of changes.. ! ! Things thrive in this light. Its how a single light is directed into the tank. PC's are spread out over the length of the tank, halides are directed into specific areas. T-5's on the other hand, shine very bright in comparison to PC, and LED's shine very bright also but are very expensive at this point.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
So how long did you run those PC lights? I would imagin that just like aclimating corals to brighter light, they would have to get used to less light.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Ya know, I know this goes against the grain as to what every one goes by. But it is a relevant question.
If this thread was what type of metal halide I should buy or do you think this is a good fixture, I would be on my third page by now.
Now I am not being disrespectfully here but 30 views thus far and one response.......I do have this question in another reefing site and I have gotten the same response. Maybe no one knows the answer and that is why it is not being talked about. This question is too far out of what most know about the hobie.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Here is the same question I have, taken directly from your link. Maybe I didn't word it correctly. If that is the case then I apologize to all.
"The ability of the corals to adapt in such an incredible manner also raises some other interesting issues. Should we try to emulate the reef zones in our aquariums and make the effort to try to provide the light spectrum and intensity that the corals are accustomed to in the wild? Or, should we provide light that “enhances” the visual appearance and coloration of the corals and force the corals to adapt in a manner that we find appealing? "
I found your link to be very interesting and informative. THANK YOU for sharing. I don't know if you looked earlier or not but I just don't understand why it takes so much to get info from others. You have already clicked on the thread, it is loaded, just give a person a hey or something. Isn't that why we are all here? Sorry.
Also, like I replied to the last one who posted, Maybe the corals just needed time to acclimate to the lesser light or different spectrum. It does state "shaded portions of the coral die when reoriented in the tank". It is just getting used to your lighting. Maybe we jump the gun and don't just let things be enough. But if we did the die off could set off a bomb in our deficient systems. Kinda a double edged sword.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
In my reading it appears to me that the coral will adjust to the lighting, providing it is enough at minimum, and will grow but that the coral may, in most cases, lose its coloring. They will become nice and brown. IMO why not look at the evidence of the attributes of higher PAR lighting and go with it? And with the newer T5 lighting systems you can actually get away with less electrical costs and up front costs and still have the same outcome.
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
I just now came across this thread, give it some time....Thirty views would likely be 30 people who were looking to learn, not 30 people who know the answer..

It's like this, when a dog lives in the wild it can survive and thrive on rats, mice, rabbits or whatever it can kill or scavenge. When we keep that same animal in our care we are obligated to give it the best possible care. Not just what it takes to survive, but really thrive. Now there are many things that can and will acclimate to lower lighting, on the reef they may thrive that way. But with things like natural seawater and completely stable water parameters, as well as an abundance of phytoplankton etc. the coral thrives. But it may or may not be very colorful. However it MAY color up under more intense lighting, which would indicate that it did adjust to it. Additionally it may see a substantial boost in it's growth rate under more powerful lighting. Now there's a limit to how little lighting the corals need. Some photosynthetic animals cant adapt at all to lower light. Clams and anemones are ones. No matter how slow you go. Starve the coral of enough light and it's zooanthelae will surely perish. This will leave the animal with nothing to survive on except some source of food. Which your most likely not going to provide enough of without overloading the delicate and feeble closed system you sustain. while in the wild it may receive plenty to survive and thrive with a lesser amount of PAR.
I dunno, but that's the way I understand it.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2948484
In my reading it appears to me that the coral will adjust to the lighting, providing it is enough at minimum, and will grow but that the coral may, in most cases, lose its coloring. They will become nice and brown. IMO why not look at the evidence of the attributes of higher PAR lighting and go with it? And with the newer T5 lighting systems you can actually get away with less electrical costs and up front costs and still have the same outcome.
Well, I would agree with you on reaping the benefits of better lighting. I am just out to understand better about lighting. As I stand now I am slowly getting together the stuff for my 75 in wall build. For the lighting I have two Ice Cap 660 ballasts. I was hoping I would not have to run them both or at least not have to run all eight bulbs that they can support. I do plan on running the T5's. In my Bio Cube 29 I have some corals nothing great and they seem to be doing just fine. I have also kept a LTA in there for the last 8 months. It looks great. I was told that it wont live with the stock lights. Am I a good boy and feed it......yes I do. Based on my experiences, I have never been able to afford the GOOD lighting. The only reason I have the Ice Cap ballasts is cause a guy at work sold the two of them to me for 50 bucks. They are brand new in the box.
Thank you for your help. You have been very helpful.

I would still like to hear from others as to their opinions.
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2948492
I just now came across this thread, give it some time....Thirty views would likely be 30 people who were looking to learn, not 30 people who know the answer..

It's like this, when a dog lives in the wild it can survive and thrive on rats, mice, rabbits or whatever it can kill or scavenge. When we keep that same animal in our care we are obligated to give it the best possible care. Not just what it takes to survive, but really thrive. Now there are many things that can and will acclimate to lower lighting, on the reef they may thrive that way. But with things like natural seawater and completely stable water parameters, as well as an abundance of phytoplankton etc. the coral thrives. But it may or may not be very colorful. However it MAY color up under more intense lighting, which would indicate that it did adjust to it. Additionally it may see a substantial boost in it's growth rate under more powerful lighting. Now there's a limit to how little lighting the corals need. Some photosynthetic animals cant adapt at all to lower light. Clams and anemones are ones. No matter how slow you go. Starve the coral of enough light and it's zooanthelae will surely perish. This will leave the animal with nothing to survive on except some source of food. Which your most likely not going to provide enough of without overloading the delicate and feeble closed system you sustain. while in the wild it may receive plenty to survive and thrive with a lesser amount of PAR.
I dunno, but that's the way I understand it.

I like your analogy. It is just interesting how I have heard the old timers say that they used to grow corals with out all this fancy lighting. One has told me he has grown clams to adult size under standard fluorescent lighting. I understand there are advancements and progress in the hobie for a reason. I also agree that it is up to us to give the very best care we can to our pets.
Thank you for you input.
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
They used to use incandescent grow lights too. It's just a matter of how many you cram over the top of the tank.... IMO, there is no way to replace the effect that ONLY MH(so far at least) can give....well until the plasma bulb hits mainstream market anyways....
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/2949261
Well, I would agree with you on reaping the benefits of better lighting. I am just out to understand better about lighting. As I stand now I am slowly getting together the stuff for my 75 in wall build. For the lighting I have two Ice Cap 660 ballasts. I was hoping I would not have to run them both or at least not have to run all eight bulbs that they can support. I do plan on running the T5's. In my Bio Cube 29 I have some corals nothing great and they seem to be doing just fine. I have also kept a LTA in there for the last 8 months. It looks great. I was told that it wont live with the stock lights. Am I a good boy and feed it......yes I do. Based on my experiences, I have never been able to afford the GOOD lighting. The only reason I have the Ice Cap ballasts is cause a guy at work sold the two of them to me for 50 bucks. They are brand new in the box.
Thank you for your help. You have been very helpful.

I would still like to hear from others as to their opinions.

The Icecap ballasts will overdrive the T5's so you'll get more bang out of 'em. 4 would be sufficient for whatever you want as long as you use good PARABOLIC reflectors. You wanna trade some frags for the other 660?
I got AOG zoos, Blue tubs, some sweet monti caps...all flavors of 'em....
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
It is funny when I go out on a bright day my arms tan a little the power of UV ~~~ not all par light readers take all things into account. Lighting setups are different… Just that simple
 
saltfan

saltfan

Active Member
#8 12-22-2008, 02:08 PM
afboundguy
whazzzzz uppie? Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MA
Posts: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkysean5
It depends on what kind of clam. Most clams need Metal Halide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpa0741
Or the right t5 setup will work for most clams.
I have a 4 x 54 W retro kit with SLR reflectors, 2 ATI blue +, 1 14k Giesemann and 1 10K UVL aquasun and I put out more PAR than some of the MH setups in my local club...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpa0741
I wouldn't say MH are best. A good quality T5 fixture can put out the par MH or more. There is more then one way to light a tank.
I second this... here are my PAR readings from my local club's meter...
I'm getting a reading of 185 on my sandbed (16" from the top of the tank) and there are people with MH that are getting 160 (150 W) and 200 (400W) so the correct T5 setup is more than enough for a clam...
Attached Images
 
saltfan

saltfan

Active Member
#8 12-22-2008, 02:08 PM
afboundguy
whazzzzz uppie? Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MA
Posts: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkysean5
It depends on what kind of clam. Most clams need Metal Halide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpa0741
Or the right t5 setup will work for most clams.
I have a 4 x 54 W retro kit with SLR reflectors, 2 ATI blue +, 1 14k Giesemann and 1 10K UVL aquasun and I put out more PAR than some of the MH setups in my local club...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpa0741
I wouldn't say MH are best. A good quality T5 fixture can put out the par MH or more. There is more then one way to light a tank.
I second this... here are my PAR readings from my local club's meter...
I'm getting a reading of 185 on my sandbed (16" from the top of the tank) and there are people with MH that are getting 160 (150 W) and 200 (400W) so the correct T5 setup is more than enough for a clam...


 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2949317
The Icecap ballasts will overdrive the T5's so you'll get more bang out of 'em. 4 would be sufficient for whatever you want as long as you use good PARABOLIC reflectors. You wanna trade some frags for the other 660?
I got AOG zoos, Blue tubs, some sweet monti caps...all flavors of 'em....

Well in your opinion, which reflectors are you in reference to?
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
SaltFan,
I assume that those numbers are from T5's?? If so then I can sure see them being suffecient.
 
wattsupdoc

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Google Sunlight supply T5 reflector, Ice cap T5 reflector, Aquatinica T5 reflector....Any of those three would be very good reflectors.....IMO...
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Thank you both.
SaltFan,
Do you know the config. on that setup? Ballasts, bulbs...
wattsupdoc,
I don't know if I want to part with the other ballast just yet. It might be nice to have a spare. I'll keep you in mind tho.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top