ICH and Hyposalinity

[jwadet1]

Hello All, I need some help (advice,guidence,experiences) on an Ich situation being treated with Hyposalinity. I have two fish in QT, a Black Tail Damsel and an Ocellaris Clown, that exibit symptoms of the desease. The Damsel was flicking/scratching against substrates,eating but no spots and the Clown was lathargic,not eating and had numerous spots on fins and body. I started Hypo according to procedures listed in this forum and others lowering salinity gradually over 48+ hours from32-34ppt to 12ppt nominally or 1.009 SG. All parameters maintained steady levels including Ph(8.2) ammonia(0) Nitrites(0) Nitrates(0). When the salinity was reached for Hypo all parameters were stable and treatment was began. The fish responded well with the Damsel still active and eating and the Clown after three days became more active and began to eat. They seemed less stressed. After 5 days the spots were gone from the Clown and still none present on the Damsel with both active and feeding well. On day nineteen, all paramters remaining steady, the Damsel has spots, four to five but rather large noticible ones. Still none on the Clown so far.
Did something happen that prevented the reproductive cycle from being broken? Within this time frame should not the tomants have been killed off? Is this reinfesting on the Damsel or maybe a delay in the cycle since the spots have just now appeared although he was scratching and flashing before with those typical symptoms of Ich?
Is this a wait and see situation or should I maybe consider a medication in conjuction with the Hypo such as a non copper based product or Cupromene at the most as far as copper goes? I have read that it should be safe at the lower salinity in a FO system. Any ideas on this as I am at a loss?
Thanks for any ideas or suggestions,
Wade

 

[beth]

Wade, welcome to the forums.
What are you using to measure salinity? Using a refractometer the salinity should be at 14ppt and the specific gravity should be 1.009.
Have you mean measuring salinity daily and topping off the QT for evaporation?

 

[jwadet1]

Hello Beth, Thanks for the welcome. I have read alot of your post's and you seem to have much expertise,hope you can help me out.
I use a refractometer and lab grade hydrometer calibrated at 78 degrees F. The range in salinity that I have been using to control Hypo treatment is 12ppt-14ppt. Typically the salinity is 12ppt and steady. Yesterday it appeared that it may have been 11ppt but most likely 12ppt since the hydrometer read 1.009 SG. I check daily several times, mornings into the night and top when needed. evaporation has not been a major problem and has not affected the salinity in a detrimental way.
All parameters are steady- pH 8.2, Alk normal, Temp. 80 F, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 0 to trace.
The Damsel still has spots today,Friday, same about 4-5 large ones for a small fish on his fins at this point. Clown has none and both are eating OK.
Could the ich, present but not in encrusted spot stage (theront), on the Damsel at a slower rate encrust and become noticible spots now that may remain the typical cycle of X days and fall off to be killed by the lower Hyposaline solution in thier tomont stage? The Clown with noticible spots early on was ahead of the Damsels cycle and spots fell off earlier and were killed (I hope) in the tomont stage. The Damsel has always flicked/scracthed against substrates but no spots were visible until now.
I guess that I am only theorizing here but I am lost since all has seemingly gone so well. Could this occur in the delayed stages/cycle of the desease for some reason?
Any ideas or suggestions? Should I be considering some alternative treatments/medications for use in place of or in conjuction with the Hyposalinity?
Thanks for your help,
Wade

 

[jwadet1]

Sorry Beth, On my last post I referanced the white spot stage as theronts. I meant Trophonts I think as I am getting a little confused with all this.
Thanks,Wade

 

[jwadet1]

HELLO, Where is everyone?
Can anyone help with this Hypo/Ich problem?
If it is not Ich, what could it be? Maybe Lymphocistos?
Any help is appreciated,
Wade

 

[lefty]

Do you think you could get pictures of your fish or better describes the white spots? This may help us determine what exactly your fish have.
-lefty

 

[jwadet1]

Hello Lefty, Thanks for the reply.
I do not have a picture yet but I can describe the condition a little more.
The spots, now 4-5, are about the size of pencil lead in diameter exept for the one on his pectoral fin which is about pinhead in diameter. They are bright white in color and appear to protude outward somewhat and the one on the tail fin appears to go througth the fin completely and appears on both sides. Maybe it is one spot or growth and not two seperate ones. The one on the dorsal fin is similar also. Still there are none visible on the body itself yet. When it started, I thought it was Ich but it (Spots) has increased in size and is not the usual scattering of salt like spots as you would typically see with that desease. It is still in QT/Hypo treatment with the Ocellaris Clown which had shown definate signs of Ich in the beginning with the salt like spots and not eating. The Damsel was just scratching on substrates and flashing. Clown's spots were gone after about 6 days in treatment. Both are active and eating well.
I have looked at information on Lymphocystis and that may be a possibility. Doesn't appear to be Brooklynella or Amyl because respiration seems normal and there is no discoloratin or sheeting on the body.
The water Quality is still very good in all parameters with the salinity at 11-12 ppt.
I hope this is helpful and i will try to get a picture up soon.
Any ideas or suggestions?
Thanks, Wade

 

[lefty]

Lymphocystis definitely sounds like a possibility. People describe the spots associated with it as fleshy and cauliflower-like. Do the spots seem to be clumping together at all? Improved water quality and nutrition tend to take care of Lymphocystis.
There's also the possibility that it's something else. I was reading on another site about someone's fish that sounded exactly like yours. The "expert" recommended that the person use Formalin based medication to take care of the problem. However, I would not do so unless you're completely sure it's not any of the other mentioned diseases. It's good that they're still behaving and eating normally.
-lefty

 

[jwadet1]

Hi lefty, the spots do seem to be clumping and raised off the surface of the fins. Cauliflower appearance fits too, sort of irregular surface like clumping spots/growths to form the rough surface of white areas. I noticed another area on one of his pelvic fins today. Same appearance.
The Water Quality is good and has been stable. The only exception is the lower salinity for Hypo treatment. As far as Nutrition, I feed them Omega marine flakes, Formula One and Brine shrimp all soaked in Garlic Extreme. Any ideas or suggestions with other foods?
Was the Formalin used as a dip or added to the tank? I am not familiar with using that for Lymphocystis but have read that it is used for Brooklynella and others. I saw a photo posted of an Angel that had Limpho and it looked similar to what I see but not absolutly sure and there was no recommended cure. They stated that it would most likely go away and was not contagious except within the same species.
Isn't Ich usually a scattering of white spots appearing like a dusting of salt across the fish's body and fins? Although this starts looking like Ich (small white spots) it grows to the clump form that is larger and less scattered.
I just don't know at this point. This was my first experience with Ich and with Hypo working well along comes this. Guess I'm getting my lessons in marine desease in crash format.
Thanks for the help.
Wade

 

[unleashed]

Lymphocystis : this virus causes the connective tissue cells in the skin to swell up to enormous proportions.it often effects the mouth or fins,but can accur anywhere.the groups of swollen cells look like spawn sitting on the surface,white and scattered.these may enlarge further to cauliflower-like tumors particularly around the mouth.sometimes it looks very much like a fungus and is often mistaken for it.the condition is rarely fatal.it usually dissappears without leaving scars,but may take months to do so.it is highly contagous and an individual showing signs should be removed.A tank of infected fishes is best left to recover.if the fishes are discarded,the tank must be thoroughly disinfected before more fish are introduced no spacific cure is known.a treatment may appear to work because of the natural course of this disease.
this inforamtion was obtained from DR Burgess Atlas of marine aquarium fishes.
I hope this information was helpful

 

[lefty]

The Formalin suggestion was mentioned in case it were something else other than Lymphocystis. At this point, it sounds pretty certain that that's what your fish has. Their diet sounds pretty good except for the Brine shrimp. It's alright to feed once in awhile, but as a regular food source it isn't the best choice (little to no nutritional value, unless it's live and freshly hatched). I would recommend going with mysis shrimp instead.
Excellent water quality and optimum nutrition will hasten a recovery from Lymphocystis, not immediately cure it. I should have been more clear about that in my last post. It should go away on its own eventually. Don't worry about it too much though, as it is relatively harmless. :happyfish
-lefty