Ich resistant to hypo and copper..... i need help plzzz

C

Candymancangt

Member
So i was doing hypo on my fish for 4 weeks or so and it was working great ich fell off my yellow tang in about 5 to 7 days and i never saw it on him since. Same with my other fish which are naso tang, foxface, coral beauty, signapore angel, 6 green chromis, 4 damsels, flame hawk. Blue tang

Its a 135 gallon tang. Then one day i got this kole tang and put him in qt with the fish.. yea i know itd reset my qt but i really wanted him... Big mistake..... he was riddled with ich it looked fine in the store thrn boom within hours in my tabk it was insaine... he also had skin litterally falling off.. i dunno what the hell was happening.

So i started doing copper with hypo. Cept i did copper at fresh water level .25ppm. Vs .5, eventually i did do .35 or so. Fish all handled it fine i didnt lose anyone. The kole tang got better started healing and i saw nothing on him since.

However 2 weeks after i got him my yellow tang started getting white spots again... And this was in copper nearing .4 and in hypo at 1.009. How in the hell am i seeing white spots in hypo salinity and copper combined.

Ssriously ?????? I also noticed my blue tang started bloating probably from the effects of hypo salinity ive seen this before.. So i atart to take the copper out and raise salinity. I got it back to normal and when i did i noticed the white spots on my tang which looked like pimples now fell off.. but they left huge craters in his skin... ive never seen that before.

Then suddenly my kole tang and blue tang got ich again.. then so did the yellow tang after a week... I also noticed ALL my green chromis coral beauty started getting lymphocystis... Looks like ich but its tumor like growths..

I jist cant win man ive been at this for like 4 months... im tired of losing fish tired of all these diseases that salt water has.

So i dropped salinity slowly over 3 or 4 days back down cept this time to 1.007. Its been in hypo for 9 days now. My yellow tang isnt looking better in fact he is RIDDLED in white spots... alll over him.. they are large spots circular i csn count them there is tons of them... looks like ich not velvet.

But its not acting like ich... ich should have fallen off in 3-7 days tops i believe... when in fact its closing on 10 days and he is getting more of them too. I see some have fallen off but they leave craters in his skin like a nasty pimple you pick at leaves a crater in your skin....

He now has a bacterial infection.. this is the 2nd time actually hes gotten septicema... I dont have 130$ to buy furan 2 the big jug so i have to fish him out and put him in a 5 gallon tank and use furan 2 packets in there to clear the bacterial infection... but this still doesnt explain what the hell is on him.


Do i have some super ich in my tank brought on by that kole tang ?? Because this yellow tang got it in hypo WITH .4ppm copper... There is just no way this is ich... ?? Or is this possible..

And if it is ich why arent my other fish getting it.. Chromis damsels flame hawk sure they never get ich.. but my naso tang or the two dwarf angels ? Foxface is ich resistant too but they can get it.. So yea..

Im at a loss i dunno what to do with this yellow tang... Hes been a super trooper fighting off infections ich and so forth for 2 months now... but now its like hes losing... Hell i even brought him back from starvation he was bonea.. now hes fat eat like mad... but hes riddled with spots in hypo salinity.. and i dunno what to do...


Pleaseee help
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
The only thing i can think off is deff need to get rid of that bacterial infectiin so i have to fish him out and put him in my 5g tank so i can use furan 2 without blowing 130 dollars ro dose a 135g tank. My 5g is sitting in hypo so hell still be in hypo salinity. But once i cure the bacterial infection then what ? If hes in hypo for 14 days left say and these white spots are still on him..

Am i really dealing with ich ?? If its velvet shouldnt he along with my other fish be dead by now but its only him getting this.. when the spots fall off why are they leaving craters in his skin...

If after thr furan 2 he still is riddled should to do copper again ?? I just dunno man seems copper makes things 10x worse because ill be honest i didnt see lymphocystis until after i did copper... nore did my yellow tang have these spots until after copper...
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
I just checked it using a hydrometer for the sake of checking and the hydrometer is reading between 1.008 and 1.004 so its saying basically 1.006 and my refractometer says 1.007. So salinity is right..


I just dunno why these spots arent coming off him and why its getting worse.

I can tell today hes reslly agitated its all over him...
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
Its hard he keeps moving around. I did catch him thought put him in my 5g qt tabk so i can do furan 2 on him for his infection. Lemme try to get a good pic
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I'd suggest that all the various treatments and moving is probably exasperating the problem. Is the 5 gal tank cycled? What size was the tank he was in?
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
Its been cycled for like 6 months i use it for antibiotics or for other issues that i cant control in my 135. He hasnt been moved ever so i dunno what youre talking about as far it making it worse lol.

I dont have 130$ for a tub of furan 2 to treat the 135 so ill treat his infection in the 5g saves alot of money. My 20g QT tabk is being used to hold my corals.

I agree on the treatments.. because i didnt have this issue until i got the kole tang and when i got him i did copper with hypo.. then shortly after like maybe 2 weeks into it he started breaking out big time.

So i was like how is ich in hypo and .4ppm copper.

I almost thought they were stress spots... but its looking like ich as it covering his nose face. Body fins ect... if it were velvet hed be dead.. but if its ich why hasny it shows on anyok ne else.

I dunno.

Could it just be this particular version of ich is taking longer to fall off ? I dunno but full hypo restarted on the 13th.. its the 23rd almost.. so 9 almost 10 days. I thought ich fell off in 5-7 days...
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I'm confused. Is this tang in a 5 gal by himself or with other fish?

Salinity should be at 1.009, not lower. Notice anything else wrong such as red gills, rapid breathing, frayed fins, deteriorating flesh areas? Is the fish still eating? Try to get a picture up when you can.

A 5 gal for a tank is way too small and no doubt causing a good deal of stress. Are you water reading good in the tank?
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
Gills are fine. Fins are fine mostly. No deteriotating fresh just the pits when the white dots do fall off.. eats like a pig i can feed him every 5 minutes and he wont stoo.

Only thing is the white dots covering him and his now infection with red patchs on his body. He has slight laterial line showing but not too crazy i feed him sea weed 3 times a day and omega one marine veggy flakes bout 5 or 6 times a day occasionally mysis but mysis isnt too nutritional

I just moved him to the 5 gallon like 2 hours ago will you please stop saying this is caused by that tank thats very frustrating Lol.. ive used that 5g tank to cure him of ich in the past ( when i first got him 3 months ago) its plenty fine for a temp holding tank.. hes only about 3 inches or so he isnt some massive 9 inch tang. My main concern is the bacterial infection not the ich. That will kill jim faster then ich will. Once thats cured ill move him back into the 135.. furan 2 should knock it out ina week or two


Hes too yellow to show ich on his body with a camera ao i circled the white dots on his upper fin thats what it looks like all over his body the yellow just hides it

 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, it doesn't sound like you really want too much input. Hopefully, your water conditions in the 5 gal tank is good which would need to be zero ammonia and zero nitrites and low nitrates, ph min 8.0., salinity 1.009, temp not above 82. I'd suggest not mixing copper with antibiotics. Keep tank lights off during antibiotic treatments as UV renders antibiotics less effective (room lights are fine). Continue with hypo and the furan 2. If you have used furan 2 previously on this fish, the bacterial infection may have a bit of an immunity to this med. If you don't see improvement within 2 days of treatment, then try getting another gram negative or a broad-spectrum antibiotic that is made for SW fish.
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
No you just dont seem to get it. Im not being the ( i dont wanna hear things guy) or being rude.. but You said i transfer him left and right left and right when i said i didnt. Then you act like hes been in the 5g for a long time.. Youre forgetting that fish can die from internal bacterial infections and i cant afford the 800 gram 130$ tub of furan 2 needed for 135 gallons.. so i have to put him in here with furan 2. The 5g is the only cycled tank i have atm besides my 20 long but that has 1000$ in coral in it

Its just a little frustrating when you make insinuations by not reading what i said first... Its like im needing to repeat myself.


I hear you on the resistance to furan 2. I thought about that too. I did 14 days of it prior. So ill do another week or two and watch if it goes away.. if its working the redness should subside.

Yes feedings will be minimal in this tank it has live rock and sand in it ammonia is 0 temp is 78. Nitrates are 5ppm. Ph is fine.

Its just hypo atm there is no copper in the tank. And i didnt do copper and antibiotics in the other tank. I did it seperetly.


Which antibiotic is made for salt water fish ? Marycyn 2 is hard to find for some reason.

I know my pic is vague but those dots.. do they look like ich ?
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
The only dots I can see are a few on the fins that are very tiny so it is hard to discern. But if the fish is actually covered with those dots then it is very likely ich. If you can use a magnifying glass to take a close look to confirm that the dots are actually raised? Yes, M2 would be ideal, but it is not readily available anymore. You'd have to probably go online to get it.

F2 is a broad spectrum antibiotic and is pretty effective so hopefully it will do the job. Just keep tank light off. If you have to look for an alternative, which you might want to line that up now, then look for either gram-neg. or a broad-spectrum antibiotic that includes the gram-neg. Avoid other medications but continue with the hypo.

If you're up for it, you can also start using real fresh garlic along with meaty foods you are offering this fish. Freshly minced garlic where the juices have been quickly mixed in with meaty food and offered to the fish can offer a natural support for both this bacterial infection and the ich. It naturally contains the ingredient allicn and is believed to provide a natural immune boast as well as treatment for bacterial and parasitic infestations. It has to be real garlic, freshly cut, and quickly served. Bottled garlic is useless. Allicin is only found in freshly cut garlic and will quickly become inert once the clove is cut and exposed.

Just an idea: You can use a cheap square rubbermaid from walmart to hold your corals and the fish can go in the 20. Perhaps for future reference. It would be a mistake to underestimate the stress level of a tang that size being kept for a few wks in a 5 gal.

​
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
Well i live ina town house with the basement rented out.. i have a 92g a 27g and the 5g in the kitchen area. My 135 20 long and 55g hexagon in my bedroom.. i dont have much more room.. but maybe ill grab another 20 long from pet co or on facebook marketplace and put some live rock in it and use that.. I just did the 5g because it saves alot of money for meds and it worked before for many of my fish including him.

Anyway. I dont need a magnifying glass they are deff raised spots.. specoally when he turns to look at you and i can see the body front way it allows you to see if its raised or not.

They are raised and very numerous. I know the pic doesnt show up but there is a ton on him. Also you see the pitting on him ? When those spots do eventually fall off.. they leave those pitting marks like its taking his flesh with him... never seen this before lol

If it is ich.. why hasnt it come off in 10 days ? And why is it actually getting worse in hypo.. its just strange you know ? And strange that no other tang or fish has it but him
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
As for the 20 gal, that would be wise for the future and maybe down the line once you are no longer needing to use antibiotics on this fish. A newly set up tank being dosed with antibiotics will create a firestorm of bad water. You do know that hypo and meds kill off live rock and live sand? Killing off the organisms on live rock and sand results in an organic waste bio-overload in a tank that has no capacity to deal with it.

So, the timeline is not so clear. You had all your fish in a QT (not the 5 gal) and everything was fine. But then you got a Kole that introduced ich again into the QT and that is when the problem started. You say they were in QT but then only mention the 135 which I assume is your DT?

Bottom line, how long has this fish been consistently in hypo?
 
C

Candymancangt

Member
He was in hypo for about 5 weeks total then 10 days again which is now, after the first 7 days on the 5 week stretch ich fell off and never came back. Then i introduced a kole tang at week 4 and like 24hrs of getting the kole who looked fine when i got him he broke out in ich or something it looked like ich.. but his skin was falling off in patchs and he had a heavy slime coat So i put copper in the tank with hypo. My big mistake was getting that kole tang as it messed everything up. I was almost done with hypo and my corals were about 5 almost 6 weeks fallow in the 20 long.

After 4 days the kole tang looked 10x better and i saw 0 spots and he started healing. Then 3 days later i noticed my yellow tang getting white spots raised white circular dots and this is in hypo at 1.009 and copper at .4ppm combined.. but some of the spots looked like pimples they were very large. And never fell off. This was at about week 5 for him... After 8 days the white dots still didnt fall off and then my blue tang bloated.. sooo..

My blue tang started bloating which is common for hypo salinity for some fish i noticed so i raised the salinity back to normal over 3 days time. ( i needed to get him back in normal salinity or hed die) once back in normal salinity my blue tang deflated from the excess water in him and he looked alot better.

I also noticed those large pimples fell off my yellow tang once in normal salinity but took the flesh off the tang leaving the craters you see in the picture . and then a day or two later i noticed new white spots forming in those craters. To me that didnt seem like ich but then i noticed it starting to cover his body but not his fins oddly.. usually ich starts on the fins first. So i lowered the salinity down over a period of 4 days. And full hypo started again on the 13th. Over the course of now 10 days hes been getting more and more and more spots.. i looked at him today and hes RIDDLED u know my pic doesnt show it but you know yellow is hard to tell... when he turns and faces me i csn see the raised bumps on his body.. i mean its a ton of em

I hope this makes sense ? So the introduction of that kole tang and when i did copper to save him is when this started. But whats odd is the kole tang the spots fell off in 3-4 days and never came back on him... instead they went to the yellow tang and this is in HYPO AND COPPER combined... .. fell off in NORMAL salinity.. then reinfected him in normal salinity... so i go to hypo but hypo isnt having an effect at all.. 10 days is too long for this to be ich im starting to think... but who knows man.. and if its velvet... shouldnt he be dead ?? He has had this for like 3 weeks now.. and if its velvet shouldnt the other like 10 fish i have have it and be dead ? And if its ich why arent the tangs or dwarf angelfish getting it ?


See this is very very very odd.. Ive heard velvet csn reproduce on the fish lesving the impression that it isnt falling off the fish.. but thrn he isnt hiding from the light or going into power heads like typical velvet symptoms... so i dunno man.

I dunno what to do... for now hes in hypo with antibiotics ... but day 10 hypo still no chqnge if anythings the raised white dots are getting more n more numerous.

Im thinking when his infection is done.. to raise the salinity to normal and do copper at full .5ppm strength. But i just dont wanna kill him from doing so many treatments either... copper ive seen kill fish that were perfectly healthy its a nasty medicine..


Im using my 135 gallon as my hypo.copper tank... I have far too many fish and tangs to put into a small qt.. even if i had a 30 or 40g QT putting a naso tang thats 7 inches long. A yellow tang. A foxface. 6 green chromis, a talbot velvet and 3 blue damsels, a neon dottyback and a coral beauty that would be too small of a tank. You think a 5g is too small for the yellow tang lol imagine all those fish in a small qt tank lol.

So i took my corals out put them in my 20 long i was using as a QT and did hypo in the 135g.. I had a minor ammonia spike the first maybe 3 days from pod and algae die off but i fixed that using a gallon of nitrifying bacteria. Since then ive have 0 ammonia abd a steady 15 to 20ppm nitrates ( as i feed 6x a day to fatten up my skinny yellow tang. He was skinny when i got him but fat now.

Am i making sense here ?
 
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C

Candymancangt

Member
Here isa pic of my yellow tang when i noticed the white spots on him 5 or 6 days afyer introducing that kole tang... see them ? This is what he looks like in person right now but you just couldnt see in my first picture cept 3x worse. This pic was taken about 3 weeks ago almost

 
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beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
The bacterial infection looks improved from the pic you posted yesterday but I can't see the whole fish. Is he improved in that area?

Also, I'm not convinced the spots shown in this latest picture looks like ich. In fact, it may well be lymphocystis.

https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/c/index.php/articles/content/lymphocystis.107

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=isch&q=lymphocystis&chips=q:lymphocystis,g_1:yellow+tang:VS0Ck7tYNXw=&usg=AI4_-kRxZNd61ltu5FaYezbsKifmCGUK7Q&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1j9qEqbLiAhWNq54KHVgHDOoQ4lYILCgC&biw=1408&bih=666&dpr=1.82

It's a common fungal infection for which there is no cure. Quality of life is the determining factor for recovery and maintaining health. Good environmental conditions, quality and varied foods that meets the requirements of the specific fish, minimal husbandry stress from other tank-mates and water quality and size of tank. I would suggest that you start using either zoecon or selcon with food for this fish which will assist with lymphocystis and HLLE which this fish also has. Both conditions are consistent with what has happened and what we see with this; more-so than a diagnosis of incurable ich even with hypo and copper.

Continue the hypo but you must maintain the SG at 1.009, not below and not above. Hypo at this level is not harmful and will not cause any strange bloating that you describe with the other fish. In fact, it will be rather beneficial to a sick and recovering fish, even if not treating ich. Test for ammonia and nitrites. Do a small daily water change with hypo water that has adequate pH just before any re-dose with antibiotics. Keep the lights off in the tank but don't leave the room in complete darkness (even at night).

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish
 
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