if a 90 degree angle=same as 1 vertical foot
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drkegel
Member
I'm a little confused about your question.
Working under the assumption that your 1 foot vertical at 90 degrees, and one foot horizontal, then the hypotenuse (the longest length of the triangle) is the square root of 2 ft. or 1.4142 ft. at a 45 degree angle.
If that's not what your trying to figure out, let me know. HTH.
Working under the assumption that your 1 foot vertical at 90 degrees, and one foot horizontal, then the hypotenuse (the longest length of the triangle) is the square root of 2 ft. or 1.4142 ft. at a 45 degree angle.
If that's not what your trying to figure out, let me know. HTH.
broomer5
Active Member
A 45 is not as bad as a 90 degree elbow.
If you want to use rules of thumbs, that is fine.
But if you want to do a calculation, you must know the internal pipe diameter ( I.D. ) of the pipe.
You calculate the friction loss of say a PVC fitting or valve in equivalent feet of straight pipe that the fitting or valve would produce.
From that you can determine the total friction loss as it related to loss of head pressure.
Horizontal pipe runs, although do cause minor friction loss, is almost not worth messing with in our tank/sumps. Unless you are running pipe a great distance.
Vertical head pressure is only the vertical distance. Doesn't matter if you have a 1 inch pvc pipe that is four feet vertical or a 10 inch pvc pipe full of water four feet tall.
The head is the same. Only in very small pipe/capillaries is this not true.
What size pipe fittings are you using ?
1/2" 3/4" 1" etc ...
If you want to use rules of thumbs, that is fine.
But if you want to do a calculation, you must know the internal pipe diameter ( I.D. ) of the pipe.
You calculate the friction loss of say a PVC fitting or valve in equivalent feet of straight pipe that the fitting or valve would produce.
From that you can determine the total friction loss as it related to loss of head pressure.
Horizontal pipe runs, although do cause minor friction loss, is almost not worth messing with in our tank/sumps. Unless you are running pipe a great distance.
Vertical head pressure is only the vertical distance. Doesn't matter if you have a 1 inch pvc pipe that is four feet vertical or a 10 inch pvc pipe full of water four feet tall.
The head is the same. Only in very small pipe/capillaries is this not true.
What size pipe fittings are you using ?
1/2" 3/4" 1" etc ...
drkegel
Member
FYI - not sure that anyone really cares to know, but something I'd like to clarify:
Static Pressure loss (as was referred to as friction loss, which isn't entirely accurate) is a major consideration in any plumbing application.
Some fittings are worse than others. The absolute worst static pressue hog you can have is a "Tee" fitting, while a 90 degree bend is quite a hog too. 45's are significantly less of a problem than 90's.
In my plumbing, I use flexible hose in place of 90 degree fitting whenever possible. Why? Because static pressure loss is not nearly as big of a concern then. However, making this type of a bend takes up a lot of space.
Also, if you transition the size of your tubing/piping from one size to another, you also create static pressure loss/gain.
HTH
Static Pressure loss (as was referred to as friction loss, which isn't entirely accurate) is a major consideration in any plumbing application.
Some fittings are worse than others. The absolute worst static pressue hog you can have is a "Tee" fitting, while a 90 degree bend is quite a hog too. 45's are significantly less of a problem than 90's.
In my plumbing, I use flexible hose in place of 90 degree fitting whenever possible. Why? Because static pressure loss is not nearly as big of a concern then. However, making this type of a bend takes up a lot of space.
Also, if you transition the size of your tubing/piping from one size to another, you also create static pressure loss/gain.
HTH
broomer5
Active Member
I care DrKegel
I am aware of static pressure loss in a plumbing system, and should have included this loss in head pressure due to pipe and fittings in those terms, but I do know that friction loss IS one of the factors that impacts the static pressure.
The static pressure loss exists BECAUSE you have placed a fitting in the flow path of the piping.
I'm also aware to accurately determine these values you must have accurate flow data on every imaginable fitting, valve and pipe that may be installed under various plumbing/pumping conditions.
This data is not always available from every manufacturer of plumbing equipment, so many rules of thumbs are applied, OR a dynamic flow calculation must be done to determine the actual or predictable loss in head pressure in a given system.
Again, as to the Static Pressure Head loss - yes you are somewhat correct in saying what you said, although the loss in static pressure is due to the fitting in the line that is causing a friction loss of the water as it's kenetic energy is transferred to the pipe in the form of to heat. This occurs in straight runs of pipe, but much more noticible in other fittings and valves.
That indeed impacts the overall static pressure. Additoinally the same fitting will most likely increase the flowrate/velocity of the water, which again impacts the static pressure - given that the pump pressure has not decreased, among other variables.
Thus you have the lost energy due to FRICTION and you've increased differential pressure or pressure drop occuring across this paticular fitting - or unrecoverable loss of static pressure.
Turbulant flow vs. Laminar flow is but another factor that can be considered - another case for friction and requires a very close look at the flow profile within the pipe section at a given point in time.
Is all of this absolutely necessary in a fish tank.
Heck no ....
But thank you for adding your opinion regarding my earlier statement.
I am aware of static pressure loss in a plumbing system, and should have included this loss in head pressure due to pipe and fittings in those terms, but I do know that friction loss IS one of the factors that impacts the static pressure.
The static pressure loss exists BECAUSE you have placed a fitting in the flow path of the piping.
I'm also aware to accurately determine these values you must have accurate flow data on every imaginable fitting, valve and pipe that may be installed under various plumbing/pumping conditions.
This data is not always available from every manufacturer of plumbing equipment, so many rules of thumbs are applied, OR a dynamic flow calculation must be done to determine the actual or predictable loss in head pressure in a given system.
Again, as to the Static Pressure Head loss - yes you are somewhat correct in saying what you said, although the loss in static pressure is due to the fitting in the line that is causing a friction loss of the water as it's kenetic energy is transferred to the pipe in the form of to heat. This occurs in straight runs of pipe, but much more noticible in other fittings and valves.
That indeed impacts the overall static pressure. Additoinally the same fitting will most likely increase the flowrate/velocity of the water, which again impacts the static pressure - given that the pump pressure has not decreased, among other variables.
Thus you have the lost energy due to FRICTION and you've increased differential pressure or pressure drop occuring across this paticular fitting - or unrecoverable loss of static pressure.
Turbulant flow vs. Laminar flow is but another factor that can be considered - another case for friction and requires a very close look at the flow profile within the pipe section at a given point in time.
Is all of this absolutely necessary in a fish tank.
Heck no ....
But thank you for adding your opinion regarding my earlier statement.
broomer5
Active Member
It's not exactly the same as straight pipe, but far better in terms of not reducing your pumping water pressure than using elbows and tees would be.
You can do either - but many hobbyiests go with flexible hosing or vinyl tubing and barbed hose fittings/clamps wherever possible.
Wish you luck - sorry for the technoweeine stuff above. Kind of lost focus of the origninal question
You can do either - but many hobbyiests go with flexible hosing or vinyl tubing and barbed hose fittings/clamps wherever possible.
Wish you luck - sorry for the technoweeine stuff above. Kind of lost focus of the origninal question
drkegel
Member
That's what I was trying to avoid, and I know you know your stuff broomer. Been reading this board long enough to know that.
I'm a techno-weenie, what can I say? I'm very particular about things, especially when it comes to this hobby (addiction really). I learn something new about it every time I read a post, and only hope to contribute what I know as well.
Rules of thumb are most certainly advisable, unless you like doing pages (literally) of static pressure and other line load loss calcs.
I deal with static and frictional pressure every day of my life. It's in my job description. I didn't think it right to mention one without noting the impact on the other, and the relationship between the two.
I'm a techno-weenie, what can I say? I'm very particular about things, especially when it comes to this hobby (addiction really). I learn something new about it every time I read a post, and only hope to contribute what I know as well.
Rules of thumb are most certainly advisable, unless you like doing pages (literally) of static pressure and other line load loss calcs.
I deal with static and frictional pressure every day of my life. It's in my job description. I didn't think it right to mention one without noting the impact on the other, and the relationship between the two.
broomer5
Active Member
Agree DrKegel
Thanks again for bringing it to my attention. For you and others interested, here's a link to some additional flow data. It's in Adobe Acrobat Reader - but can be saved on your hard drive. It contains a lot of useful information when wanting to know how your tanks sump/plumbing will perform with various fittings and pipe arrangments.
+GF+ Signet is one of the products I deal with in my line of work for flow related applications primarily used in plastic piping systems.
For those of you not interested - kindly disregard
Thanks again Dr !
<a href="http://www.georgefischer.co.uk/malltechdesign.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.georgefischer.co.uk/malltechdesign.pdf</a>
Thanks again for bringing it to my attention. For you and others interested, here's a link to some additional flow data. It's in Adobe Acrobat Reader - but can be saved on your hard drive. It contains a lot of useful information when wanting to know how your tanks sump/plumbing will perform with various fittings and pipe arrangments.
+GF+ Signet is one of the products I deal with in my line of work for flow related applications primarily used in plastic piping systems.
For those of you not interested - kindly disregard
Thanks again Dr !
<a href="http://www.georgefischer.co.uk/malltechdesign.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.georgefischer.co.uk/malltechdesign.pdf</a>