Inverts, CUC & Ich
- Thread starter acrylic51
- Start date
mr. limpid
Active Member
I know for a fact they do. They themselves don't have it but the protomonts stage ick can attach themselves to there outer surface and come into your tank.
acrylic51
Active Member
It just has me wondering and scratching my head, because here on this site, I see day in and day out people promoting "CUC". Not once have I ever seen when this advice is given or suggested that a warning of caution should be added about quarantining their CUC......Some might say a fresh water dip is adequate, but in reality is it enough, and how many people do or don't quarantine all additions to their system........
Which leads me to another area, how many of us have bought macro and immediately placed it in our fuges or tanks......What undesirables could macros carry as well.........
sweatervest13
Active Member
Good topic.
It is my understanding that Mr. Limpid is right. When its in its free floating stage it can attach (well maybe not attach but fall on or hook to, just not attach like it would to a host fish...know what I mean??) to anything living or dead. So any thing you add directly to your system could potentially transfer the parasite. Right??
I feel that you are not 100% covered unless you QT all additions to your system. Anything from a small coral frag, or macro algae for the sump should go in QT for 6 weeks. BUT who does that? No really who does that? I know I thought of this after the fact when I added corals. So I am in the position that I have a system that has not been 100% QT'ed. So I try to FW dip or dip corals.
The CUC that my LFS has in stock are in their own system and they never mix with fish. But I am sure that is not 100% covered against ICH either.
My system is almost 1 year old and I have never seen a fish in this tank have any white spots. Does that mean there is no ICH in the system?? Maybe, but I could not say 100% for sure.
I would like to get to the point where everything is in QT for 6 weeks before adding to the system.
It is my understanding that Mr. Limpid is right. When its in its free floating stage it can attach (well maybe not attach but fall on or hook to, just not attach like it would to a host fish...know what I mean??) to anything living or dead. So any thing you add directly to your system could potentially transfer the parasite. Right??
I feel that you are not 100% covered unless you QT all additions to your system. Anything from a small coral frag, or macro algae for the sump should go in QT for 6 weeks. BUT who does that? No really who does that? I know I thought of this after the fact when I added corals. So I am in the position that I have a system that has not been 100% QT'ed. So I try to FW dip or dip corals.
The CUC that my LFS has in stock are in their own system and they never mix with fish. But I am sure that is not 100% covered against ICH either.
My system is almost 1 year old and I have never seen a fish in this tank have any white spots. Does that mean there is no ICH in the system?? Maybe, but I could not say 100% for sure.
I would like to get to the point where everything is in QT for 6 weeks before adding to the system.
kiefers
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/392189/inverts-cuc-ich#post_3481090
Kiefers, really not sure how much more to elaborate......I'm just curious as to every ones thoughts as to if or if not possible for inverts be it snails, shrimp whatever to carry over the ich.........
It just has me wondering and scratching my head, because here on this site, I see day in and day out people promoting "CUC". Not once have I ever seen when this advice is given or suggested that a warning of caution should be added about quarantining their CUC......Some might say a fresh water dip is adequate, but in reality is it enough, and how many people do or don't quarantine all additions to their system........
Which leads me to another area, how many of us have bought macro and immediately placed it in our fuges or tanks......What undesirables could macros carry as well.........
After posting that I caught on pretty quick.
IMO as for certain CUC's I acclimate to the DT the normal way in the bag. While doing so, I get three separate bowls of DT water. After the 3 hour acclimation period I then empty out the bag of water and place in the bowl, then in the next and finally the last. I let the critter sit in each slowly stiring the water. Then I throw in the tank.
As for the snails and or hermits, I QT because they have the possisbly infected water in their shells.
Just my way of doing things.
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/392189/inverts-cuc-ich#post_3481090
It just has me wondering and scratching my head, because here on this site, I see day in and day out people promoting "CUC". Not once have I ever seen when this advice is given or suggested that a warning of caution should be added about quarantining their CUC......Some might say a fresh water dip is adequate, but in reality is it enough, and how many people do or don't quarantine all additions to their system........
Which leads me to another area, how many of us have bought macro and immediately placed it in our fuges or tanks......What undesirables could macros carry as well.........
After posting that I caught on pretty quick.
IMO as for certain CUC's I acclimate to the DT the normal way in the bag. While doing so, I get three separate bowls of DT water. After the 3 hour acclimation period I then empty out the bag of water and place in the bowl, then in the next and finally the last. I let the critter sit in each slowly stiring the water. Then I throw in the tank.
As for the snails and or hermits, I QT because they have the possisbly infected water in their shells.
Just my way of doing things.
geoj
Active Member
From my own experience with seeing what I believe to be the Tomont cysts. When siphoning a hospital tank bottom there seemed to be cysts that had attach to the bottom of the tank and cysts that had not. So they may drop like a piece of sand and then roll around for some time before they then become sticky and glue/attach to substrate. I would doubt that any highly mobile living thing a cysts would become attach to. For rock work and other slow animals it would be possible but conditions would need to be right.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
"Once a trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont. During this phase, it loses its cilia, flattens its surfaces, and moves onto a substrate for about 2–18 hours. After this stage, the organism stops, sticks to the surface, and encysts, whereupon it becomes a tomont. The cyst hardens in about 8–12 hours (Colorni 1985). Before the cyst forms, the protomont may be susceptible to some treatments for a short period of time. However, once the cyst has formed and hardened around the tomont, it has greater protection against common treatments"
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
"Once a trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont. During this phase, it loses its cilia, flattens its surfaces, and moves onto a substrate for about 2–18 hours. After this stage, the organism stops, sticks to the surface, and encysts, whereupon it becomes a tomont. The cyst hardens in about 8–12 hours (Colorni 1985). Before the cyst forms, the protomont may be susceptible to some treatments for a short period of time. However, once the cyst has formed and hardened around the tomont, it has greater protection against common treatments"
acrylic51
Active Member
Not arguing with any of the practices.....Even though I'm not a firm believer in the acclimation process that most employ here on this site.....I think there is a better proven method as far as acclimation, and that varies depending where the specimen is purchased. Again that is another subject/topic in itself.
I was again curious and never gave it much thought about the quarantine of CUC, only for the mere fact I've never really employed a CUC.......Have never been a fan of hermits, but snails are a bit useful IMO.....Most people usually float and add them to their DT......I'm questioning the practice as to why it really isn't stressed or mentioned really about QTing inverts. I fully understand the stages of ICH, which isn't the question, but as most of us do QT fish, I'd bet 90-95% have never thought about their inverts they purchase. Again there is no guarantee on anything you purchase. You might think you know the source of your purchase, but you can't guarantee or assume anything.....All make look well at the LFS or a trusted site, but again poor practice if you don't.
Even corals being QT.......Most assume or use the medicated dip or fresh water dip.....Again useful, but surely not the most effective way to guarantee a pest free environment. Be it flat worms, red bugs....All this could be isolated and caught possible with a dip of your choice, but again there is no guarantee that all was gotten during the dip, and still could be other hitchhikers tagging along that weren't affected through this process.
I was again curious and never gave it much thought about the quarantine of CUC, only for the mere fact I've never really employed a CUC.......Have never been a fan of hermits, but snails are a bit useful IMO.....Most people usually float and add them to their DT......I'm questioning the practice as to why it really isn't stressed or mentioned really about QTing inverts. I fully understand the stages of ICH, which isn't the question, but as most of us do QT fish, I'd bet 90-95% have never thought about their inverts they purchase. Again there is no guarantee on anything you purchase. You might think you know the source of your purchase, but you can't guarantee or assume anything.....All make look well at the LFS or a trusted site, but again poor practice if you don't.
Even corals being QT.......Most assume or use the medicated dip or fresh water dip.....Again useful, but surely not the most effective way to guarantee a pest free environment. Be it flat worms, red bugs....All this could be isolated and caught possible with a dip of your choice, but again there is no guarantee that all was gotten during the dip, and still could be other hitchhikers tagging along that weren't affected through this process.
acrylic51
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJ http:///t/392189/inverts-cuc-ich#post_3481110
From my own experience with seeing what I believe to be the Tomont cysts. When siphoning a hospital tank bottom there seemed to be cysts that had attach to the bottom of the tank and cysts that had not. So they may drop like a piece of sand and then roll around for some time before they then become sticky and glue/attach to substrate. I would doubt that any highly mobile living thing a cysts would become attach to. For rock work and other slow animals it would be possible but conditions would need to be right.
I'm following you and not doubting anything your saying, but that last part of the post contradicts some principles or practices......You stated conditions would need to be right......
That's an awfully large gamble to take, and unnecessary, and none of use could actually say or predict the "right" conditions......Going further if that's the case why is it strongly urged against LR in a QT.....I know the issue with treating with copper, but lets assume you do QT and you don't treat......Purely QT for observation.....you get a little trigger happy and can't wait the full QT period and move the rock back and the new addition to the DT......Again I go back to it can't be proven the "right" conditions.......
Originally Posted by GeoJ http:///t/392189/inverts-cuc-ich#post_3481110
From my own experience with seeing what I believe to be the Tomont cysts. When siphoning a hospital tank bottom there seemed to be cysts that had attach to the bottom of the tank and cysts that had not. So they may drop like a piece of sand and then roll around for some time before they then become sticky and glue/attach to substrate. I would doubt that any highly mobile living thing a cysts would become attach to. For rock work and other slow animals it would be possible but conditions would need to be right.
I'm following you and not doubting anything your saying, but that last part of the post contradicts some principles or practices......You stated conditions would need to be right......
geoj
Active Member
The primary reasoning behind QT'g anything is for observation and then treat as needed. Atleast thats what I was told.
I have never fresh water dipped corals tho.
Yes, QT everything to observe them for pest. Remember you can catch the common cold, but most of us don't live in a bubble to prevent it as it can be survived, just like Ich can. I don't fresh water dipped corals as it will kill some of them.
I have never fresh water dipped corals tho.
Yes, QT everything to observe them for pest. Remember you can catch the common cold, but most of us don't live in a bubble to prevent it as it can be survived, just like Ich can. I don't fresh water dipped corals as it will kill some of them.
mr. limpid
Active Member
I guess I'm the only one. I QT everything wet from hermits to snails to LR. Right now I'm QT'ing my macro algae. After ick came in LR and wiped 9 fish, I will never going threw ta=hat again. One fish was a Blond Naso that was just starting to get streamers.
And when I get some Nassau's snails I will QT them too.
kiefers
Active Member
no no no...... we do QT everything but critters with the outer skeleton, I feel it not needed really, however, we did QT some shrimp only due to we new the water they were in was ich infested. The shrimp mated and now we have like 3 dozen baby shrimp in the Coral Q tank. WOW!! Lil critters, I think they look like their mother. ")
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Even when you buy in live rock, live rock itself can contain ich. I believe it takes 72 days before all ich is gone in a tank - and you have to quarantine and treat all new additions to keep it out of your tank. But, then again, who lets their tank sit fallow for 72 days before putting their first fish in?
The parasite can attach to hard surfaces. Equipment, glass, sand, rock, and shells. It is not as likely that you introduce it through those means, but it can feasibly happen. If a fish store is housing their live rock, rock mounted corals, and inverts in systems that are separated from fish tanks, then very likely you will not have an ich problem introduced to your system. 99.9% unlikely, LOL. Ich can only survive for a very short time on those hard surfaces before it must continue on to the next stage in its normal life cycle. If you are going to QT live rock, etc, a couple of days is more than enough time.
mr. limpid
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392189/inverts-cuc-ich#post_3481254
The parasite can attach to hard surfaces. Equipment, glass, sand, rock, and shells. It is not as likely that you introduce it through those means, but it can feasibly happen. If a fish store is housing their live rock, rock mounted corals, and inverts in systems that are separated from fish tanks, then very likely you will not have an ich problem introduced to your system. 99.9% unlikely, LOL. Ich can only survive for a very short time on those hard surfaces before it must continue on to the next stage in its normal life cycle. If you are going to QT live rock, etc, a couple of days is more than enough time.
Thanks Beth only a couple of days I was QT inverts for 3 weeks a couple of days is better.
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/392189/inverts-cuc-ich#post_3481254
The parasite can attach to hard surfaces. Equipment, glass, sand, rock, and shells. It is not as likely that you introduce it through those means, but it can feasibly happen. If a fish store is housing their live rock, rock mounted corals, and inverts in systems that are separated from fish tanks, then very likely you will not have an ich problem introduced to your system. 99.9% unlikely, LOL. Ich can only survive for a very short time on those hard surfaces before it must continue on to the next stage in its normal life cycle. If you are going to QT live rock, etc, a couple of days is more than enough time.
Thanks Beth only a couple of days I was QT inverts for 3 weeks a couple of days is better.
kiefers
Active Member
have yourself a cup of coffee and a good read. Just one example of pests that even QT'ing for a "few days" can't prevent. QT. Observe for a few days, atleast one week because you may not see anything for a few days, then treat accordingly. JMO.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/as-if-we-needed-another-reason-to-dip-and-qt-new-corals