Is this a hawaiian or indo harly?

bioneck47

bioneck47

Member
OOOPS! I ment australian instead of hawaiian. I got this guy from my lfs and they didn't even know that there were two different kind of harlys. I think it's an indo but not sure because the tip of his tail was nipped off while at the store by a powder blue (this was the main reason why I bought him, poor fish). I can see some pink on the tip of his tail but I won't know for sure until he regenerates it. I wouldn't normally ask this but his colors look really good. What do you guys think?
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aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
It's an Indo. The key is in the orange. Australian Tusks have 'cleaner' orange stripes, where as yours looks like the orange stripes have rubbed on some carbon-paper (so-to-speak). I don't like to use the red tail outline, blue teeth, or red ventral fins, as guides because many large Indo have those. Judging by the spots on yours, I'd say he's somewhat larger? At least 5"?
 
bioneck47

bioneck47

Member
yeah, I figured it was an indo. He's about 4-5 inches so I guess that explains his really bright colors.
 
aw2x3

aw2x3

Active Member
Definately an Indo.
Don't expect it to live too long. They're taken from the wild, mostly about the size of yours, but they're cyanide caught.
He'll be fine for a month or so, eat perfectly, show perfect behavior. Then, one day, dead...
Sucks, but that's what happens 99% of the time.
 
ccampbell57

ccampbell57

Active Member
Originally Posted by EL GUAPO
http:///forum/post/2671292
Thats what I was trying to figure out before I got side tracked .
LOL! I figured. Speaking of Aussie tusks. Did you see the huge ones that Premier had for sale? They were absolutely amazing!
 
bioneck47

bioneck47

Member
Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/2671294
Definately an Indo.
Don't expect it to live too long. They're taken from the wild, mostly about the size of yours, but they're cyanide caught.
He'll be fine for a month or so, eat perfectly, show perfect behavior. Then, one day, dead...
Sucks, but that's what happens 99% of the time.
Are you talking about all harlequins or just indo's? I know the aussies are caught with a hook and I'm pretty sure this one wasn't caught by cyanide.How do you know that they are ALL caught by cyanide? I'm sure that some fish are still caught by it but I thought that for the most part the cyanide days were over. I've had him for about 2 and 1/2 months and the LFS had it for a long time, they actually had to lower the price to finally sell it. They aren't as hardy as the aussies but are a relatively hardy fish. This is actually my second one, I had to give my last one away because it got too big for my 90gal. I just noticed that this one has more vibrant colors than my last.
 
aw2x3

aw2x3

Active Member
Almost 99% of all Indo are caught by cyanide. They'll last, for a while, but eventually die prematurely.
 
kjr_trig

kjr_trig

Active Member
Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/2671294
Definately an Indo.
Don't expect it to live too long. They're taken from the wild, mostly about the size of yours, but they're cyanide caught.
He'll be fine for a month or so, eat perfectly, show perfect behavior. Then, one day, dead...
Sucks, but that's what happens 99% of the time.

Originally Posted by AW2x3
http:///forum/post/2671396
Almost 99% of all Indo are caught by cyanide. They'll last, for a while, but eventually die prematurely.

I have an Indo Harly, thus I wanted a little more info. I emailed a guy that owns a rival online site (where I bought my Indo from) and wholesale fish supplier. I asked him to read your post and respond, here is verbatim what he sent me.
"I think the guy is correct until he makes the blanket statement of “Indo”. What he should have said was Philippines. And really you are talking about only a handful of collectors who still do that. We have offices in Manilla and I have spoken with and gone on fishing trips with collectors over there who do not use cyanide so a blanket statement like that is irresponsible. Having said that, we still don’t buy fish from the Philippines. Inverts yes but not fish. Our Indo fish come from Bali and Jakarta, or at least they are shipped from there. They are collected from all over the region. I have also been to Jakarta and seen some operations there and I have to say that they don’t need to learn anything from us. They have collection and holding down.
Bottom line, trust who you buy from, trust your gut and avoid blanket statements."
Certainly not trying to discredit you or anything, as you have earned my respect and the respect of everyone on this site, but I think your statement here was a bit extreme.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by kjr_trig
http:///forum/post/2671819
I have an Indo Harly, thus I wanted a little more info. I emailed a guy that owns a rival online site (where I bought my Indo from) and wholesale fish supplier. I asked him to read your post and respond, here is verbatim what he sent me.
"I think the guy is correct until he makes the blanket statement of “Indo”. What he should have said was Philippines. And really you are talking about only a handful of collectors who still do that. We have offices in Manilla and I have spoken with and gone on fishing trips with collectors over there who do not use cyanide so a blanket statement like that is irresponsible. Having said that, we still don’t buy fish from the Philippines. Inverts yes but not fish. Our Indo fish come from Bali and Jakarta, or at least they are shipped from there. They are collected from all over the region. I have also been to Jakarta and seen some operations there and I have to say that they don’t need to learn anything from us. They have collection and holding down.
Bottom line, trust who you buy from, trust your gut and avoid blanket statements."
Certainly not trying to discredit you or anything, as you have earned my respect and the respect of everyone on this site, but I think your statement here was a bit extreme.
Great comments! I know cyanide is an on-going problem. However, reputable dealers, like the two on this thread, could never stay in business if they regularly sold such fish. Most fish caught with cyanide die very quickly and very few will make it through all the collection, transportation, and acclimation processes. Plus the 15 day guarantee. I have bought all my fish online for many years and cannot remember the last time I lost a fish that could be considered cyanide related. I'm not denying the existence of the problem; but I DO trust the folks I do business with. BTW, Tusks would be very hard to capture with traditional cyanide methods (within my limited understanding, anyway); because the generally don't retreat into the coral heads when the diver approaches with his poison spray.
BTW, the fish in question is an IO variety, in my opinion. It isn't just the colors, I think Aussies just look bulkier and more robust.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
The 'posion spray' is the other method I've heard of, the far more illegal method is the 'blanket attack.' The collectors dive with a 2-liter bottle or so, filled with their sodium cyanide mixture, uncork the bottle and let the current take the cyanide down stream across the entire section of reef. It literally clears out an entire part of the reef and gets anything in it's path. All they have to do then is net the ones that are still breating.
To say 99% of all Indo Tusks are collected through cyanide is not unreasonable IMO. Tusk are near impossible to cast-net collect, nor does it make any finanical sense, if collectors are out there, rod and reel catching these guys, only to turn around and have the Tusks going for some of the prices lately I've seen on Indo Tusks ($49.99). EVERY Indo-Tusk I seen avilable, including the 3 I have purchased over time, either had, or appeared to have some lingering effects of cyanide posions, decresed senses (especially sight or there lack of), overly bright colors, or prone to diseases.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
While I'm no expert on the fish collecting business; it would seem to me that if a collector in Hawaii, living, working in the American economy,under American oversight & laws can net a yellow tang that sells for $35; then an Indonesian (3rd world) collector certainly could catch tusks that sell for $50 in a legal manner and come out just fine--he probably sees about fifty cents. I've noticed many of the IO tusks are coming from Bali, a fairly well policed a part of Indonesia. It's my understanding that most (not all) cyanide deaths occur in holding facilities and during transport. How long is a legit dealer going to put up with this obvious mis-representation by the collector and the resulting ill-will of customers? I know cyanide fishing is on the increase; but the long-established dealers must have ways of knowing what they're buying. The key being long-established, IMO.
I'll admit to having a long-standing prejudice against fish from certain areas; because of cyanide history and the general way fish are handled. I'll also admit to the possibility that I'm dead wrong; but I really like & respect the folks I buy fish from and as long as they treat me fairly, which they do, I'll tend to believe them.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
And I agree with all of that. I was just trying to state that for every one long-established dealer, there's at least 100 not so established dealers with shady practices. I also am merely referring to just Tusks. I would agree in that thinking 99% of all fish out of the Indo-region are cyanide caught, is indeed asinine. But until someone says I can get hand-caught Indo-Tusks for $50, I have my doubts (referring back to how you can catch Tusks).
And to be perfectly honest, if everyone lost their Indo Tusk, would it really affect the dealers at all? I mean, we all loose fish at one point or another. And with the typical timeframe of those dying from cyanide 1-2 months, any guarantee is long expired. And would the loss of one fish really change things for you? And I'm sure Tusks make up a tiny tenth of a percentage of dealers sales.
And who's to say what the real effects from actual cyanide collection are? I'm positive not every fish cyanide collected dies. Some surely do go on to live regular lives.
My bottom line is, I didn't intend to make it as gloomy as AW or myself did in the first post. I apologize if I did.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/2672218
And I agree with all of that. I was just trying to state that for every one long-established dealer, there's at least 100 not so established dealers with shady practices. I also am merely referring to just Tusks. I would agree in that thinking 99% of all fish out of the Indo-region are cyanide caught, is indeed asinine. But until someone says I can get hand-caught Indo-Tusks for $50, I have my doubts (referring back to how you can catch Tusks).
And to be perfectly honest, if everyone lost their Indo Tusk, would it really affect the dealers at all? I mean, we all loose fish at one point or another. And with the typical timeframe of those dying from cyanide 1-2 months, any guarantee is long expired. And would the loss of one fish really change things for you? And I'm sure Tusks make up a tiny tenth of a percentage of dealers sales.
And who's to say what the real effects from actual cyanide collection are? I'm positive not every fish cyanide collected dies. Some surely do go on to live regular lives.
My bottom line is, I didn't intend to make it as gloomy as AW or myself did in the first post. I apologize if I did.
......And every tusk I've kept has been an Australian variety, so I'm really not that qualified to comment on the IO type.. I just have to jump to the defense of my " friends" in the industry. at times. BTW, I did ask another major online dealer for an opinion and will post it a.s.a.p.. I'll also ask our sponsor take a look at this thread; they sell the IO tusk, even though the pic is an Australian (the result of the photo contest.)
 
saltwaterfish.com

saltwaterfish.com

Administrator
Staff member
Well, I'm reading this thread in Jakarta right now. I was in the Philippines last week. Cyanide use is always a topic of discussion relative to these countries and we think it is important that we visit our suppliers first-hand.
I think what you will find is that there are good suppliers and not so good suppliers. It depends on the chain of custody of the livestock. Our suppliers have worked with us for years and are on the leading edge on sustainable capture in their respective countries. The facilities are MAC Certified, and they buy 100% of the fish from select fishing villages so they (and us) can control the chain of custody of the fish.
That is not to say that cyanide fish do not come out of these countries. They do. Certainly not anywhere near 99%, but it continues to be a problem with less reputable collectors. I would suggest that hobbyists ask questions about where and how their fish are collected. If the chain of custody is easily compromised, proceed with caution.
This is one of the reasons why we do not use trans-shippers and we import all our fish directly to us. It sometimes limits our supply, but we are confident in our livestock because we know the chain of custody all the way to us...and our suppliers share our commitment to quality.
I've had cyanide discussions in the Philippines with the head of the marine fish exporters association... and the local fishermen where our fish are caught. I also met with the Head of the Marine Aquarium Council for Indonesia the day before yesterday. All are on the same page on this issue. Things are improving, cyanide use is much less than ten years ago, and is recognized as a threat to their industry so the government increasingly is getting involved.
While I did not see Tusks being collected in my visits to the villages, you must understand the extreme poverty of the local fishermen that supply our hobby. The price they earn per fish is such a small fraction of the cost to bring the fish into the country. Air Freight is a much much (and especially now) much greater cost factor. A local fisherman will earn approximately $.05 for a clownfish for instance. They earn perhaps the equivalent of a few dollars for a days work. There is absolutely no comparison to western wage scales.
For those interested, check out saltwaterfish.com's sister site, www.oceansgarden.com to learn more about initiatives we are taking, or visit my blog https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/atype/0/Articles for some descriptions of the Philippines fishing villages, and some pictures from the fishing villages where our fish come from.
Scott
 
kjr_trig

kjr_trig

Active Member
Thanks for posting Scott....Very interesting blog, would love some pics and a story about Jakarta too.
 
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