LFS gave me ICH

[farmboy]

I bought 2 tank raised perc clowns from a lfs and the next day, one of them has little white pimple looking things on it. I called the LFS owner. He told me that my tank salinity (S.G. 1.024) was too high and that is what gave them ICH. . . .
These are the first and only fishes after the cycle.
His policy is something like".. .on my salt water stuff, pretty much after they leave here, I don't guarantee anything. . ."
Is this a common policy - do I need a new LFS? - Or is this my first class in Salt water 101?
I feel kinda gullable right now . . .

 

[1journeyman]

The ich came from the LFS, not your tank.
I would find another store and tell the manager why...

 

[tizzo]

You know what sucks, is that you could potentially pay a lot on money into your hobby and that LFS would profit greatly if they'd work with you. But instead, his 15 dollar clown is worth losing businesso over.
That being said, I wouldn't go back but not for the reasons you mentioned. I wouldn't go back because 1. he's an idiot. A specific gravity of 1.024 is perfectly within normal range and two the poor customer relations. He could of at least told you how to get rid of it!!
Stupid LFS's!!
The ick appeared because the fish was stressed during the move. Ick is a debatable parasite. Do all fish always have it and when their immune system is low due to stress, it appears, or is it an introduced parasite that comes in from an outside source??
Nobody knows for sure but it's pretty much agreed to go with the fact that it's introduced into the tank. Any fish you purchase, you're at risk of bringing in parasites, that's why a qt is crucial!
Since your stuck with this problem... you can go to the diease forum to get the procedure for treatment.

 

[farmboy]

Thanks!
That is kinda what I was thinking, but it's nice to hear other folk's opinions when you don't have that much experience.
On the up side, I asked if "cleaner shrimp" would help with ich since it is a parasite. He said, "Yeah". I said what kind of a deal do you have on them (thinking I've spent a lot of $$$ in his store. . .you know. . .maybe a discount. . .since his fish gave me ich. . .)
He said, "Those are $24.99/each".
Oh well, I am very satisfied with SWF.com merchandise. Cleaning crew is GREAT! (Should have ordered the cleaner shrimp right here--maybe on the next order)

 

[farmboy]

Tizzo,
Good advice! I thought being the first fish and the only fish for a while, I could put them in the display no problem. To this guy's credit, the fish in the store looked OK when i bought them. I was thinking about getting some coral there when I get my lights wired, but . . .
If I buy from another LFS, I'll keep hearing, "Let the buyer BEWARE".
Thanks again guys.
THis is a great site.

 

[tizzo]

A cleaner shrimp will prolly eat the parasites but not eliminate them. You really should treat the fish. Either hypo or the much frowned upon medication. But I totally understand your frustration. When I was new to the hobby, I bought a Sebae, then came home to research. The very next day I called the LFS and asked if I could return it, even for store credit. Even swap it out with a BTA!! They said no. Since that time, I have spent much more than 5 grand on this tank and not a penny went to them!! It was ironic because I bought my tank, stand, lights, filtration, substrate and quite a bit of LR from them just that week!!! 2 grand and they didn't let me exchange the sebae!! I believe in supporting the LFS's but there is a point where you become an idiot for doing so. I found other LFS's I like and go to often. Good luck!!

 

[ophiura]

Sorry to hear of this experience.
Many LFS have that policy - even if the fish died in the bag on the other side of the store's door - they wouldn't give a refund.
Now, your specific gravity is right where it should be. Some could easily argue a bit low for inverts.
They keep their specific gravity low, as many LFS commonly do, to help fight off parasites, but it is in NO WAY NATURAL for the fish. That is not what stressed it out.
BTW, did the LFS owner at any time when you were getting the fish tell you about acclimation, or what their specific gravity should be or what, in his opinion, yours should be? I'm guessing not.
There are lots of posts in our disease forum on Ick, so you may want to search around there.

 

[farmboy]

ophiura,
He didn't sell me the fish. An employee did. I did not ask about acclimation or S.G. because I've seen a LOT on these threads about the ranges people use. I think MUDPLAYERX was one user that uses 1.024 s.g. He said this is because that is what the ocean is. --Average maybe?-- Makes sense to me.
The Ick seems to get more pronounced in the evening. I did not know it came and went this way. There is always a faint mark just behind the first stripe on the larger fish. . . .
I need to read more about ICK so I can deal with it. Love the clowns, though. Very fun to watch.

 

[ophiura]

Well, you've got it now, so either way. His answer, and his warranty, are still bogus
I guess we should start with "what are your other water parameters" especially the overlooked stuff like pH, alkalinity, etc....
You know, Ick is just part of the deal in this hobby. Fish are stressed. To say "well YOUR specific gravity is too high and that's the problem" was way off base. If you look at any fish in an LFS - even in good one's, you are going to find fish with a spot or two on them. The one's that are less stressed are less likely to fall victim to it...but others will die from it. It is just the reality of the hobby, and theoretically any shop can be "blamed" for it. Actually, if something started going wrong in my tank, I am sure, even with no new fish added in months, that they would get ick or something. Just a natural thing that fish can normally fight off, IMO. But no shop can really avoid it all that much unless they put all their fish into established tanks and never have new shipments His attitude I think just annoyed me...could have been a bit more helpful and realistic.

 

[farmboy]

Yeah,
Just getting my education, I guess. It goes with the territory.
I like to put myself in other people's shoes, though. I would have handled it differently. This is the place where I bought my tank setup (fresh water) and most of the fresh fishes. I've been shopping in that store for over a year, spending a lot of money(to me anyway). I would have offered to exchange the fish or cut a deal on some cleaner shrimp or meds or at least some advice on treating the prob. Not "your salt level is way too high".
That may have been an attempt at good advice. He doesn't know I surf the SWF.com message boards!! Maybe i'm too rough on the guy!! HA HA HA HA HA!
Water Parameters: Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20ppm?(within range according to test)
PH 8.2
Alk 120ppm
Temp 78 F
Calcium -- Haven't tested yet (140 pounds of aragonite - my friend says don't worry about it just yet!)
The ICK seems to be getting better. The most pronounced occurence was just after adding the cleaning crew. Maybe I freaked them out with a crab attack. Just a few were added at a time but hey, those things look kinda scary. . .

 

[ophiura]

I like to put myself in other people's shoes, though. I would have handled it differently
:yes:
But that is the way it goes. Look for a store that does offer a warranty...sometimes it is tough to get them to honor it (there are usually restrictions attached, and with good reason "my grouper ate my clownfish, I want a refund"). But it is at least a start. See if there is a reef club in your area, and if they can recommend good stores.
When buying fish, always study them closely. Ask them to be fed, and the store should agree. Look at the behavior of the fish...is it active, interested in either you or other fish? Is it grazing on decor? Is it hiding a lot? Are the eyes clear, and without any marks or spots? Lots of things to address first without even dealing with an employee. I can take a LOOONG time to pick out of fish. I usually narrow it down to two, and then go between them for quite awhile looking at behavior.
I am a touch concerned about your alkalinity - on the low side, and also watch that your nitrate doesn't get too much higher. While it is not fatal to fish, it can result in algae growth, and as it gets higher it takes more water changes, etc, to remove it.
You may wish to get a baseline calcium test. Though you are not concerned with calcium in terms of keeping corals at this time, it is an important factor in stabilizing pH and alkalinity. They are all related.
There are some truly excellent articles on reef chemistry written by Randy Holmes Farley. He's got one on water parameters, alkalinity and calcium problems, and others. A google hunt should turn them up. Don't let them drive you crazy (lots of equations) but there are also guidelines and solutions.

 

[thejdshow]

Originally Posted by ophiura
When buying fish, always study them closely. Ask them to be fed, and the store should agree.
Plesae correct me if I'm wrong, as you are much more knowledgable than I am. I read that you do not want to feed the fish prior to purchse because odds are they will release their fecal matter into the bag on the way home. Since they are usualy stored in little water this could have jurrastic effects on the water.
Again, I'm just stating what I read, and would like your opinion on it. I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything. Just wanted to get the real deal.
Thanks :yes:
*durr how do I subscribe to threads now¿?
** Nevermind. Just figured it out.

 

[farmboy]

Thanks for the reply.
I have a calcium, phosphate and master test kits. I'm due for a water change, but i'm ready to add my fuge volume to the mix(matching salinity and temp and PH). I hope this will lower overal nitrates. If not. . . ." a mixing we will go, a mixing we will go".
I'm more surprised of my own naivety (NOT AT ALL unbelievable !! Ha HA!) than LFS policy. We did not see anything wrong with fish before purchase. NOTE: His freshwater fish return policy is different than his saltwater fish return policy. Still, I should have known better.
I'll take my admonishment and learn my lesson. And I'll probably go back to his store. Although I'll know exactly what kind of a deal I'm making the next time. SWF.com will send livestock a thousand miles by fedex and still give a guarantee. It will have to be a GOOD deal to beat that.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Thejdshow
I read that you do not want to feed the fish prior to purchse because odds are they will release their fecal matter into the bag on the way home.
If it is a long trip, this could be important...but the fact is that the fish may have been fed that morning anyway. They are fed daily, so it could be an issue any time. I like to SEE that the fish is eating prepared foods before buying them, to avoid any "I can't get my fish to eat" scenarios later. When I worked at an LFS, we rarely if ever had a situation where the fish died in transport to a home. So it can be argued both ways...but I like to see them eat instead of taking the LFS' word on it
So if fish are being transported long distances, then it is good to fast them, but short distances is usually not preventable.
Farmboy - don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes there is little to be done (except using a QT tank before adding to the main). Another thing to ask though is how long the fish has been at the store. IMO, don't buy a new arrival - max mortality of newly arrived fish usually occurs 48-72 hours after arrival at the store (basically after the adrenaline wears off!). So it is good to have a fish that made it through the first phase. A lot of stores won't warranty their saltwater fish. I am just really wary of that. Does it mean they have a lot of fish dying after leaving? :thinking:

 

[farmboy]

Appreciate the encouragement.
......and advice.
Hey that's why were here. I DO like the fish--QT tank is maiking more and more sense.
(Imagine a sheepish grin...)

 

[thejdshow]

Originally Posted by ophiura
If it is a long trip, this could be important...but the fact is that the fish may have been fed that morning anyway. They are fed daily, so it could be an issue any time. I like to SEE that the fish is eating prepared foods before buying them, to avoid any "I can't get my fish to eat" scenarios later. When I worked at an LFS, we rarely if ever had a situation where the fish died in transport to a home. So it can be argued both ways...but I like to see them eat instead of taking the LFS' word on it
So if fish are being transported long distances, then it is good to fast them, but short distances is usually not preventable.
Farmboy - don't be too hard on yourself. Sometimes there is little to be done (except using a QT tank before adding to the main). Another thing to ask though is how long the fish has been at the store. IMO, don't buy a new arrival - max mortality of newly arrived fish usually occurs 48-72 hours after arrival at the store (basically after the adrenaline wears off!). So it is good to have a fish that made it through the first phase. A lot of stores won't warranty their saltwater fish. I am just really wary of that. Does it mean they have a lot of fish dying after leaving? :thinking:
Good information. Makes a lot of sense. My LFS is about 35 mins away.. Would you consider that long distance? anyways great advice. I always look forward to reading your threads.
As for farmboy, we all suffer losses at one time or another. It's just important to learn whatever we can from these losses. Thus your fish, even though dead, still contributes to the well being of your tank. =) It's just a positive way to look at it IMHO. Good luck with your tank. :yes:

 

[farmboy]

Thanks!
The perc isn't dead. He is probably going to recover. I appreciate the thought.

 

[essop3]

just as a side note, most clowns won't get cleaned by the shrimp

 

[thejdshow]

mine does =)

 

[exile415]

Originally Posted by Farmboy
Thanks!
That is kinda what I was thinking, but it's nice to hear other folk's opinions when you don't have that much experience.
On the up side, I asked if "cleaner shrimp" would help with ich since it is a parasite. He said, "Yeah". I said what kind of a deal do you have on them (thinking I've spent a lot of $$$ in his store. . .you know. . .maybe a discount. . .since his fish gave me ich. . .)
He said, "Those are $24.99/each".
Oh well, I am very satisfied with SWF.com merchandise. Cleaning crew is GREAT! (Should have ordered the cleaner shrimp right here--maybe on the next order)
Wow. 24.99 for a Cleaner Shrimp. Expensive. I can get one for $9 On sunday Bagsale.