LFS trouble. Should I leave them?

chips

Member
I have noticed a trend and don't know if what I am thinking is correct. I have bought 5 fish from SWF and have 2 left. One died because it jumped out of the tank (it was a firefish), 2 died for unknown reasons other than a new tank. Months later I started adding fish from a LFS. I have bought 8 fish and 6 have died for unknown reasons. Here is the list in the order they were added.
FROM SWF these were added first just after the cycle
1 Percula clown (still swimming)
3 Green Chromis (1 still swimming, 2 died within 12 hours)
1 red firefish (made a big jump and missed the refugium)
FROM LFS the first ones were added a month or so after the ones from SWF
Sailfin Tang (I think it was full grown, it was bigger than any others I have seen in stores. I also know that it shouldn't have been in
a 55 gallon tank. Lesson learned. it died)
Diamond Gobie (died, failed to thrive I guess. it got skinny and died)
Lawnmower Blennie (looked healthy but died for unknown reason)
1 starry blennie (added about 1 month after the sailfin and lawnmower died) (died within 2 days of adding anthias and engineer gobie)
Catalina (red striped gobie with pistol shrimp) 2 months after sailfin and lawnmower died
2 Anthias (1 went straight to the bottom and never came out, died hours later)
1 Engineer Gobie (died within 24 hours)
Here is what I have left.
1 Percula Clown from SWF (started with this)
1 Green Chromis from SWF (started with this)
1 Catalina from LFS
1 Anthia from LFS
I was at another store and found that they had a new diamond gobie and the one I had from the store in question was three times the size of this one. I also found a sailfin that mine was probably 5 times the size of. I wondered if the store I was getting my fish from is selling old fish. I like supporting the LFS but am wondering if I should change that. I called the LFS owner about the Anthias and he said that he would give me a 10% discount if I bought the other Anthia he had left but he did not guarantee his fish. I asked him even it the fish sunk to the bottom, then was crab food by morning. I even called him as soon as the fish hit the water and acted funny, he told me that they tend to hide for a couple weeks sometimes. I sold him some xenia for cheap that he sold for profit while I was still in the store and all he will do for me is a 10% discount on one cheap fish. I am thinking I should stop dealing with this store but don't want to make that decision if it is just something that I may be over reacting to.
What would you do if you bought 8 fish from a store and 6 have died for unexplained reasons that fast?
Everything else looks good. Water changes weekly, feeding every 2 or 3 days, no bad algae outbreak, make up water is from RO, top of water is RO, sump/refugium, filter sock (changed regularly), chaeto in fuge. Corals are growing and look good. PH fluctuates a little in the morning (8.2 to 7.9 at worst) DT lights come on and PH is 8.2, Light schedule is actinis 8 hours, daylight 6, fuge 8 hours when DT lights are off. Temp is 83-82. Nitrites 0 Ammonia 0 Nitrates 0 - 5 but no higher than 5, Calcium 440 but goes up when PH is lower. I have thought of everything I know and can't figure out why it would be me loosing only the fish from the LFS.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Do you quarantine your fish? I try and order online so I have that 14 day guarantee. If a fish can make it in the quarantine 14 days and then dies in your main tank, then you have a problem. If the fish is unhealthy, it will show up within the two weeks.
It won't help to put fish directly into the main tank...the CUC will make sure the body is never found, and there goes your guarantee.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't blame anything on th Lfs yet.
How long of a ride home is it from the store?
What is your acclimation method?
What is your salinity and is it measured by a calibrated refractometer?
How old are your test kits?
What are you feeding and in what amounts?
Is there any voltage in your tank measured by a voltmeter?
Have you ever dosed any medications?
What is the origin of your live rock?
Do you research your fish choices before purchasing or say "oooo he's pretty! I want that one!"
 
S

smallreef

Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipS http:///t/391164/lfs-trouble-should-i-leave-them#post_3467575
I have noticed a trend and don't know if what I am thinking is correct. I have bought 5 fish from SWF and have 2 left. One died because it jumped out of the tank (it was a firefish), 2 died for unknown reasons other than a new tank. Months later I started adding fish from a LFS. I have bought 8 fish and 6 have died for unknown reasons. Here is the list in the order they were added.
FROM SWF these were added first just after the cycle
1 Percula clown (still swimming)
3 Green Chromis (1 still swimming, 2 died within 12 hours) Not always great survivers
1 red firefish (made a big jump and missed the refugium)
FROM LFS the first ones were added a month or so after the ones from SWF
Sailfin Tang (I think it was full grown, it was bigger than any others I have seen in stores. I also know that it shouldn't have been in
a 55 gallon tank. Lesson learned. it died)
Diamond Gobie (died, failed to thrive I guess. it got skinny and died) How was new was your sand bed?
Lawnmower Blennie (looked healthy but died for unknown reason) How much grazing was available in the tank?
1 starry blennie (added about 1 month after the sailfin and lawnmower died) (died within 2 days of adding anthias and engineer gobie
Catalina (red striped gobie with pistol shrimp) 2 months after sailfin and lawnmower died Catalinas are a cooler water species...
2 Anthias (1 went straight to the bottom and never came out, died hours later) How were they during acclimation? and how did you acclimate?
1 Engineer Gobie (died within 24 hour) Could have just been a sensitive fish .. when did the LFS get him in before you bought him?
Here is what I have left.
1 Percula Clown from SWF (started with this)
1 Green Chromis from SWF (started with this)
1 Catalina from LFS
1 Anthia from LFS
I was at another store and found that they had a new diamond gobie and the one I had from the store in question was three times the size of this one. I also found a sailfin that mine was probably 5 times the size of. I wondered if the store I was getting my fish from is selling old fish. I like supporting the LFS but am wondering if I should change that. I called the LFS owner about the Anthias and he said that he would give me a 10% discount if I bought the other Anthia he had left but he did not guarantee his fish. I asked him even it the fish sunk to the bottom, then was crab food by morning. I even called him as soon as the fish hit the water and acted funny, he told me that they tend to hide for a couple weeks sometimes. I sold him some xenia for cheap that he sold for profit while I was still in the store and all he will do for me is a 10% discount on one cheap fish. I am thinking I should stop dealing with this store but don't want to make that decision if it is just something that I may be over reacting to.
What would you do if you bought 8 fish from a store and 6 have died for unexplained reasons that fast?
Everything else looks good. Water changes weekly, feeding every 2 or 3 days, no bad algae outbreak, make up water is from RO, top of water is RO, sump/refugium, filter sock (changed regularly), chaeto in fuge. Corals are growing and look good. PH fluctuates a little in the morning (8.2 to 7.9 at worst) DT lights come on and PH is 8.2, Light schedule is actinis 8 hours, daylight 6, fuge 8 hours when DT lights are off. Temp is 83-82. Nitrites 0 Ammonia 0 Nitrates 0 - 5 but no higher than 5, Calcium 440 but goes up when PH is lower. I have thought of everything I know and can't figure out why it would be me loosing only the fish from the LFS.
 

chips

Member
I have not had a QT setup because I really don't have the room for one in my current setup. I also don't have the means to keep another tank setup and running. I don't have an extra filter system or anything. I can't just make a fresh batch of saltwater and put it in a empty tank with no rock or sand, then add the fish to that can I? Wouldn't that have to cycle before I could add the fish? I guess if I did a water change every time I bought a fish I could quarantine my fish, but I can't constantly have another tank running for that purpose. I am looking into a way to do that though.
SWF has given me credit for the ones that I bought from them. I just don't like the way you have to pay shipping again and can't use the credit on any sale item or deal that you can get free shipping on.
The ones that have died from the LFS don't get credit anyway. We have been able to see all of them though since my wife is disabled and is in front of it most of the day. The pile of crabs kind of give the location away also. I just don't think it is my tank, fish that have been in there for more than a month die when I add a new fish but the ones from SWF are fine. It just doesn't make sense
 
S

siptang

Guest
as people above me stated, please give us more info to help you better. Remember that we are not trying to bash you, we are all friends here and we are learning from other's mistakes as well as our own. Sorry to hear you had so much trouble.. it's unfortunate but we all go through it in this hobby..
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Could you possibly answer my questions? Maybe there is an explanation. Small reef also as it right about some of the fish. My biggest concern is your acclimation practices.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipS http:///t/391164/lfs-trouble-should-i-leave-them#post_3467585
I have not had a QT setup because I really don't have the room for one in my current setup. I also don't have the means to keep another tank setup and running. I don't have an extra filter system or anything. I can't just make a fresh batch of saltwater and put it in a empty tank with no rock or sand, then add the fish to that can I? Wouldn't that have to cycle before I could add the fish? I guess if I did a water change every time I bought a fish I could quarantine my fish, but I can't constantly have another tank running for that purpose. I am looking into a way to do that though.
SWF has given me credit for the ones that I bought from them. I just don't like the way you have to pay shipping again and can't use the credit on any sale item or deal that you can get free shipping on.
The ones that have died from the LFS don't get credit anyway. We have been able to see all of them though since my wife is disabled and is in front of it most of the day. The pile of crabs kind of give the location away also. I just don't think it is my tank, fish that have been in there for more than a month die when I add a new fish but the ones from SWF are fine. It just doesn't make sense
A 10g tank costs $12.00 there or about, and a little HOB filter costs $10.00 at Walmart. I use a sponge or filter material from my main tank and water from the main tank...like a water change of 10g is all.
All that comes up to $25.00 maybe. How much have you spent on fish that have died? I don't have any room either...my house is super tiny...I set up my QT on the top of my dresser in my bedroom. I also purchased a little plastic ornament because I didn't like to look at a piece of PVC pipe. $5.99 the pipe would run less than a $1.00
Foster and Smith also have a 14 day guarantee, and they will replace the fish and not do the credit thing. I ordered a Hectors goby from them...DOA...they replaced the fish...shipping and all. I had only ordered the one fish, I don't know how they would do multiple orders.
Answer the folks questions and go from there. There are bad LFS... it does happen, but they can't stay in business like that.
 

chips

Member
@smallreef
sandbed was probably 2 months. It was brown when he got in there.
There was a good patch of algae growth but he rarely ate it. He would eat off the glass, off the powerheads and eat flake food
The catalina is still living, I meant it was added about 2 months after the sailfin and the lawnmower died. It seems to be doing good, color is good, he comes off the bottom and eats
Anthias looked good at the store, looked fine in the bag. floated for temp, dumped out some store water and added some of mine. Did that two or three times over time, probably an hour after temp acclimation. probably 1.5 hours total. Added to DT, Chromis and Clown had to go check them out. One had it's fin up and then started swimming with the chromis. The other one never put his fins up or showed anything like the other, it just went to the bottom and hid. It then swam to the back and stayed there in the corner of the tank. Next morning it was dead
LFS said the engineer gobie was there for about a week maybe. looked okay in the tank, no signs of ick on any fish, swimming fine. During acclimation (done the same way as above) it went to the back and stayed in front of one of the power heads. That night he was all over the tank, looked like he was doing good. The next morning he looked like he was still swimming around and haven't sen that one since. (this is the only one we have not found the remains of)
LFS told me that all of these fish are hardy and very easy, but they also told me that the sailfin tang would do great in a 55 gallon tank. This is one of the reasons I am thinking it may just be the store. I got bad information about the Tang (granted I should have researched it a little better), it seems I may have gotten bad information about the other fish as well. I have noticed that fish and coral are dying in their tanks.
Am I experiencing a two fold problem here? Part bad store/information, part bad husbandry on my part. Or is there something going on in my tank that I haven't found yet.
 

chips

Member
Sorry Snake, I was typing another answer to smallreef
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/391164/lfs-trouble-should-i-leave-them#post_3467580
I wouldn't blame anything on th Lfs yet.
How long of a ride home is it from the store? 30 minutes
What is your acclimation method? Float then change part water over time, then add only fish to tank. I believe I will be going to the drip method and QT if I can get that going
What is your salinity and is it measured by a calibrated refractometer? 1.024 hydrometer (refractometer is ordered and should be here Tuesday)
How old are your test kits? a little old but they match two different fish stores tests
What are you feeding and in what amounts? Flake veggie and meaty mixed, vita something, and mysis. all eaten in under two minutes, just a little hits bottom for crabs
Is there any voltage in your tank measured by a voltmeter? 0 Voltage after home made ground probe
Have you ever dosed any medications? No meds
What is the origin of your live rock? not sure
Do you research your fish choices before purchasing or say "oooo he's pretty! I want that one!" I ask the LFS what the requirements are and will it work in my tank with my current stockings. I also ask if it is aggresive or peacful, coral safe, hardy, easy or hard to keep
 

chips

Member
O, ground rod is made of an aluminum wire that is connected to a copper insulated wire (copper wire is not in the water) then goes to the ground prong of a plug. The hot legs have nothing in them
Could the alluminum wire be causing a problem?
 

chips

Member
@flower
So I can just add water from my tank to the QT and a sponge from there into a 10 gallon the day I bring the fish home and that will last two weeks? If that is all it is to it I already have that at home and could do that. Even if I just set it on the coffee table for the two weeks would work for me. I thought you had to have it constantly running with a protein skimmer and everything. Like running another complete tank
@siptang
I know nobody is trying to bash me here, that is why I put this on here trying to get help with it. I'm just trying to figure out what it is, if it is me doing something wrong I want to learn and fix that. If it is the store I don't want to go back there. Thanks for the reassurance that I'm not getting bashed
 

novahobbies

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipS http:///t/391164/lfs-trouble-should-i-leave-them#post_3467598
@flower
So I can just add water from my tank to the QT and a sponge from there into a 10 gallon the day I bring the fish home and that will last two weeks? If that is all it is to it I already have that at home and could do that. Even if I just set it on the coffee table for the two weeks would work for me. I thought you had to have it constantly running with a protein skimmer and everything. Like running another complete tank
@siptang
I know nobody is trying to bash me here, that is why I put this on here trying to get help with it. I'm just trying to figure out what it is, if it is me doing something wrong I want to learn and fix that. If it is the store I don't want to go back there. Thanks for the reassurance that I'm not getting bashed

LOL, no, no bashing allowed!
You are close to having the right of it for your QT. Flower had it dead on. Almost ANY fish that is going to live in a 55 can be quarantined in a 10g tank. You should never QT more than one fish at a time in a perfect world. You should go get a cheap Aquaclear filter...the kind that has the flow move up through a sponge, then through it's little bag of charcoal, etc.
Once you have this, take the aquaclear's sponge and throw it in your display tank for a week or so in a high flow area. Stuff it next to your current filter media, and it will seed with the proper bacteria quickly. After this has seeded for a week, you should be fine to use it. Place it in your aquaclear filter, set up the 10g tank, and you have an "instant cycle" QT tank. No, the QT is not FULLY cycled, but it will be safe for your fish. Make sure you are testing the big 4 daily during any QT process. You mentioned using tank water for the QT. I do this all the time, and I think it's a great way to keep your two tanks as similar in water chemistry as possible. Do a water change in your display (don't suck up any muck) and use that water for your QT. The sponge HAS to be in the filter....from the way you worded your question, you made it sound like you wanted to know if it could just float around in there. Nope.
So: 10g tank: 15 bucks around my part of town.
Aquaclear: 12 bucks.
PVC crap: 2 bucks
Clip on Light: 5 bucks
Total? $34 dollars for some peace of mind. Remember you should be QTing for a full 4 weeks at least...longer if you have to treat for disease. Also, you should remember that QT doesn't guarantee your fish will live. It helps keep the animal in a contained stress-free observation area that is able to be treated if necessary.
FINALLY: When your QT is done, take out that sponge and THROW IT AWAY. Don't re-use it, especially
if you have treated the tank with ANYTHING. Sponges are cheap as sin, put a new one in your display filter for whenever you need to setup a QT, but NEVER re-introduce anything but the fish from the QT into your display.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by novahobbies http:///t/391164/lfs-trouble-should-i-leave-them#post_3467607
LOL, no, no bashing allowed!
You are close to having the right of it for your QT. Flower had it dead on. Almost ANY fish that is going to live in a 55 can be quarantined in a 10g tank. You should never QT more than one fish at a time in a perfect world. You should go get a cheap Aquaclear filter...the kind that has the flow move up through a sponge, then through it's little bag of charcoal, etc.
Once you have this, take the aquaclear's sponge and throw it in your display tank for a week or so in a high flow area. Stuff it next to your current filter media, and it will seed with the proper bacteria quickly. After this has seeded for a week, you should be fine to use it. Place it in your aquaclear filter, set up the 10g tank, and you have an "instant cycle" QT tank. No, the QT is not FULLY cycled, but it will be safe for your fish. Make sure you are testing the big 4 daily during any QT process. You mentioned using tank water for the QT. I do this all the time, and I think it's a great way to keep your two tanks as similar in water chemistry as possible. Do a water change in your display (don't suck up any muck) and use that water for your QT. The sponge HAS to be in the filter....from the way you worded your question, you made it sound like you wanted to know if it could just float around in there. Nope.
So: 10g tank: 15 bucks around my part of town.
Aquaclear: 12 bucks.
PVC crap: 2 bucks
Clip on Light: 5 bucks
Total? $34 dollars for some peace of mind. Remember you should be QTing for a full 4 weeks at least...longer if you have to treat for disease. Also, you should remember that QT doesn't guarantee your fish will live. It helps keep the animal in a contained stress-free observation area that is able to be treated if necessary.
FINALLY: When your QT is done, take out that sponge and THROW IT AWAY. Don't re-use it, especially if you have treated the tank with ANYTHING. Sponges are cheap as sin, put a new one in your display filter for whenever you need to setup a QT, but NEVER re-introduce anything but the fish from the QT into your display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipS
http:///t/391164/lfs-trouble-should-i-leave-them#post_3467598
@flower
So I can just add water from my tank to the QT and a sponge from there into a 10 gallon the day I bring the fish home and that will last two weeks? If that is all it is to it I already have that at home and could do that. Even if I just set it on the coffee table for the two weeks would work for me. I thought you had to have it constantly running with a protein skimmer and everything. Like running another complete tank
 

chips

Member
Seth,
You asked about my salinity and how it was tested. I answered with 1.024 with hydrometer and my refractometer is on the way. I did think about this earlier and read somewhere that people have had the hydrometers off pretty far. Someone stated that theirs was off .015. If mine was that low now my tank would be in hypo. Could that be why some of these fish died instantly and some only lasted a few months or weeks? If that was it wouldn't my corals be doing bad as well?
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Hydrometers aren't accurate by any means.
Your acclimation methods are what needs work.
Read about the drip method and read about the other ways.
It sounds like you subjected those fish to osmotic shock. Your salinity might have been much, much higher than the bag water and that an cause serious problems.
 

chips

Member
I will start using the drip method and my refractometer should be here Tuesday. I ordered it because I thought it could be the salinity being off. This still doesn't explain the loss of the older fish unless they could take the wrong salinity for a while and couldn't take it any more. Can that happen? It does make sense that my acclimation method is wrong because I drip acclimated the fish from SWF but the ones from the LFS were floated per instructions of the store. Is the drip method the best way? I know it would probably be better than my current way.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Temp and drip acclimate and see if that works better. Don't buy more fish until you get that refractometer.
One of the fish you purchased was a chromis. Those have a bad tendency to die in captivity. Mainly because they are collected with the use of cyanide. There are also several other fish that have the possibility of being collected with cyanide.
 

chips

Member
I will not be getting anything until I get the refractometer. I really may not be getting anything until after I get back from vacation and move to my 125.
 
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