Live Rock/72 Gallon Tank/Agressive

[xterling]

My post will be rather involved, but I get the impression folks on this board are very helpful. I have a 72 gallon tank, that I’ve had for over a year now. I’ve had nothing but terrible luck with this thing, growing pains. Needless to say I’ve lost hundreds, and hundreds of dollars in fish over the last 14 months. These problems were brought on by my sheer ignorance of the intricacies of this wonderful hobby. First I was spraying cleaners, and air deoderizers all around my tank. Didn’t know that was a no-no. Then I wasn’t feeding my fish a varied diet. I lost an undulated trigger, Mineotus grouper, a porcupine puffer, and a banded eel. Due to one, or all, of the preceding problems. I also found out that you needed to maintain a certain temperature in the tank, so after a cold snap we had in S. Florida, I lost a few more fish. Then I kept replacing the dead (stressed-out, and Ich ridden) fish, with more fish. No quarantine, no waiting. Boom, there I was again with another batch of dead fish. So I got a water warmer, a UV sterilizer, and kept the tank empty for 4 weeks. I then put in 2 Blue/yellow damsels in there, and they didn'’ last a week (Ich again). Wether it was stress related or not, I don't’know. Water conditions during the last episode were excellent. So, I treated with copper for a month (this is a decoration only tank at this point), poly filtered the copper out, along with Chemi-Pure, then I obtained 2 more Damsels, they seemed to do alright for about 3 weeks, so I added a small Clown Fish, which the Damsels apparently killed, or stressed to death. So I took back the Damsels, and the idiot, I mean, guy at the store convinced me to buy a spotted Mandarin, and a Butterfly Fish, keep in mind there is no live rock or coral in my tank. Needless to say both fish perished in what I refer to as the tank o’ death. So here I am, starting over again, and wondering, is it all worth it? I mean I’m the type of guy that names his fish, so losing them really hurts. I’ve got my 72 gallon tank with about 10 lbs. Of Live Rock (now), a big wet/dry, UV sterilizer, excellent lighting. I always have 2 bags of Chemi-Pure, and a Poly-filter in place. My water conditions are perfect by any standards, and temperature is stabilized. I want to proceed with getting fish, and adding more live rock. But I love aggressive fish. Does anyone have any idea on how to proceed (ie,stock) with my tank. What types of fish would you recommend? How many, and often should I add fish. How much Live Rock should I get? Somebody help, I’m dying over here!

 

[cchung718]

Hello~ My sympathy goes to you. To your question of is all this worth it: Why would everyone else be so addicted to it if it's not? =) Anyways, I had the same type of problem when I first started saltwater, but it was for a much shorter period of time. I lost about 150 dollars in fish.
Well, I think first, you need to cycle your tank. Take your time and cycle it well so that you don't go through anymore heart/head ache. I recommend live rocks. Before live rocks, my fishes were dying. After live rocks, they seemed to do much better. I think atleast 40 lbs of LR in your 70 gal is necessary. i think the more, the better.
A lot of the fishes you lost (trigger and puffers) are very hardy fishes. If they died, then your water must have been really bad. So, I think you should cycle the tank and get some more live rocks. After you're done cycling, probably add one hardy fish. After a couple of weeks, add another and so on...
I am also cycling a 75 gal tank right now for about 3 weeks. I have 55 lbs of Vanisi LR and a couple of power filters on it. I am going to put a w/d (125 gal) on it later this week or next week. I am planning on adding fishes (other than green chromis i have right now) probably in 3 weeks more a month.
Sorry this is so long... I got carried away because I had the same problem a few months ago. Good luck.

 

[old salt]

Wow... you have to add fish VERY slowly... it's painful, but in the long run it's the only way to go... damsel's can be mean as hell... not suprising there... and like you said, the idiot at your store sold you tough fish to keep alive... and if you put both of those in your tank at once you may have caused another cycle in your tank... the ammonia would have wiped them out... You do need more live rock.. The last thing is that you say water conditions are perfect. What are they? Give us PH, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, etc...

 

[xterling]

When you say 'cycle' do you mean the waiting period between Ich outbreaks, or like the cycling that you do when the tank is new. Also, when you add live rock, is there a waiting period before adding fish, or can you have fish, and add live rock immediately?
Does the live Rock do something to the water parameters?

 

[old salt]

I'm mean like when the tank is new. If you add more to your bioload than the bacteria in your tank can handle ie. not enough bacteria present to convert ALL the ammonia to nitrite and so on.. you will get a spike in ammonia, which will kill delicate fish like butterflys and mandarins... This is why you have to add SLOWLY, to give your tank time to adjust (more bacteria to grow).
As far as the live rock, I think it depends. If you add CURED LR to a tank that has already cycled and after a couple of days you get no spikes due to die off your probably ok to add MAYBE 1 small fish... if your rock isn't cured, i can almost guarantee another cycle... so yes, the rock can effect your water parameters... test often.... know your water quality....
Lastly, all the books I've read say that delicate fish like butterflys, manderins, angels should only be added to a WELL established and stable tank... we are talking months here.... maybe even a year...
Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I've mistated here...
Good luck... as I've heard here before... slowest is fastest... LOL!

 

[xterling]

How long is a cycle?

 

[xterling]

Also, what additional equipment do I need to properly maintain 40-50 Lbs. of Live Rock?
Do I need a Protien Skimmer? What are Detrivore Kits? or for that matter, a plenum?
Thanks folks for all your help.

 

[old salt]

you probably dont need anything else to add the rock, but try to get CURED rock... you can tell if it's cured cause it will smell good like the ocean, if it smells like sewage it's not cured and will throw your tank into another cycle... the length of the cycle depends on a lot of things, and I don't even pretend to understand them all... The skimmer is a plus from all i've read but i'm not sure in all cases... you need input from someone with more experience from here... i've given you just about all the knowledge I have.. good luck!

 

[dgs174]

The cycle:
When you put water in a tank, there are a bunch of ammonium ions floating around. Imagine these as bullets that will kill your fish. Gradually by chemically reacting with your water or bacteria that you may have introduced with live rock or live sand the ammoniom ions change to nitrite ions. These are equally harmful to MOST fish. Again these nitrite ions gradually change into nitrate ions. High levels of nitrate will kill sensitive fish like angels, but moderate ranges are acceptable to the hardy fish that you want.
So these ranges seem pretty important eh? That means a test kit is absolutely necessary, so buy a good one. You should be testing your water alot during the cycle to see where in the cycle you are (whether ammonium is high or nitrites are of nitrates).
Equipment: make sure you have good filtration that turns the water over several times during an hour. Some would argue that a protein skimmer is an absolute must, but I say wait until your tank is mature. Another definite are power heads, they will keep your water oxygenated and thus keep your fish happy!
Live rock: I don't do anything special to my live rock. I just make sure there is alot of purple algae (called coraline) on it before even thinking about putting it into my tank.
Chemical treatments: I am guessing that chemipure is some sort of water treatment. Personally (I know others may disagree), but I do not like the thought of putting chemicals into the ocean I have in my room, but its your call.
So in conclusion, get a test kit. Be patient. Watch the cycle go through. I would even turn off the UV sterilizers during the cycle because right now you want to encourage bacteria growth, and hopefully you would not have to be concerned with a disease outbreak. When you are sure it is over (through your ardous water tests), buy a damsel and watch it for a couple weeks.
Now if it lives you can have some fun. Turn on your UV sterilizers. You could fit one trigger and an eel in your tank. It would be pushing it, so remember if this is a positive experience than you should try a larger tank. Introduce the fish a few weeks or even a month apart. These will not stress out the bacteria in your tank.
Hope that helps,
Dan

 

[xterling]

Thanks for the help Dan. I had no idea that putting in even cured LR or LS could raise Ammonia. Are you saying it's not a good idea to introduce additional LR or LS after fish are living in the tank? Should I move fish to another tank to add LR or LS?

 

[dgs174]

Adding a SMALL amount of cured live rock will not hurt your tank, just make sure there is a lot of purple (coraline algae) on it. I had 4-5 pounds every now and then to add some diversity to my bioload (bacteria in the tank). So you can get away with it just make sure that it is cured, meaning it has alot of purple on it and try to do it in small amounts. Adding live sand shouldn't hurt you that much, but you really should have your substrate (the ls mix) set before you even start your cycle.
Dan

 

[xterling]

Would adding a Niger Trigger be detrimental to the LR? I would like to have some cleaner shrimp, turbo snails, and hermit crabs, but I think a trigger would munch most of them.

 

[dgs174]

Sounds like you want a reef and not an aggressive setup. Triggers will munch on the lr sometimes, and you will see its fragments go through their gills. But for the most part triggers coexist will lr because in the wild they are reef bound fish. I think niger triggers a cool, they have nice fins, and cool swimming patterns. The advantage of the niger is that comparatively speaking to other triggers it is fairly wuss, so it could definately coexist easier with other fish.
As for inverts, you are correct in that they are an expensive lunch for triggerfish. Some members believe that trochus snails are ideal for aggressive setups because they are a bit larger than mexican turbos. So experiment a little and try!

 

[old salt]

I may be wrong, but I don't think just because there is coraline algae it guarantee's the rock is cured... my understanding is that smelling is the best way to tell... smells good = cured, smells bad = not cured...

 

[xterling]

Old Salt, I think you're right. I was smelling cured vs. uncured LR, and there's definitely a difference. The uncured branch variety also smell 10 times as bad as the cured branch variety.

 

[dgs174]

You guys may be right, but I have never seen a really really really purple piece of live rock that did not smell like the ocean like cured live rock is suppossed to.