Live Rock vs Bio Balls in sump ??
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fuax
Member
Bio balls will work fine. Bio balls produce no more excess nitrate then lr does. It is not the rock nor the bio balls that produce the nitrites and nitrates it is the bacteria that grows on the media you are using it is the same bacteria whether you use lr or bio balls.
Both forms of media work very well it is a matter cost and preference.
My opinion use bio balls in your wet/dry and load the display tank up with the live rock you will get the best of both worlds.
Both forms of media work very well it is a matter cost and preference.
My opinion use bio balls in your wet/dry and load the display tank up with the live rock you will get the best of both worlds.
birdy
Active Member
You are right that bioballs do not produce excess nitrates, but they cannot get rid of them, inside LR there is an anearobic zone where denitrification takes place. bioballs do not have this. If you not have some means of removing the nitrates (large water changes or a refugium) and you are planning a reef tank at some point you may as well just use LR, my opinon of course. In my tanks that I maintain, the ones with bioballs and no refugium have much higher nitrate readings than the ones that do.
If you are planning a fish only tank with no thought of ever going reef then by all means use bioballs they are much cheaper.
If you are planning a fish only tank with no thought of ever going reef then by all means use bioballs they are much cheaper.
fuax
Member
Birdy I do not disagree with you at all on your last post that is why the last line of my post stated to use bio balls in the filter and load up the live rock in the display it will serve the same purpose.
The anaerobic bacteria and the aerobic bacteria are both present in the live rock or bio balls in ther filter as well as in the display tank's live rock and live sand bed. You should beable to get the gas exchange that you need through the surface area from the display tank.
Surfer2 just an example for you I use a very large wet/dry system with bio balls, in that wet/dry system I also have a large skimmer , the wet/dry also is connected to a refuge system that over flows back into the wet/dry which is then pumped back to the display tank. The display tank has about 100 lbs of lr and a shallow sand bed. (the lr and ls do the same process in the display tank as the live rock in the filter do. My nitrates are a constant zero with this set up and my fish are very happy.
These definitions are just to clear up what Birdy and I are discussing for the novice.
Aerobic
A term used to describe an organism that needs oxygen to survive.
Anaerobic
A term used to describe an organism that lives in an environment with little or no oxygen.
Literally without air, refers to an area where there is no dissolved oxygen in the water. While necessary for some things such as bacterial reduction of nitrate to nitrogen, these areas can also produce hydrogen sulfide and other undesirable substances
The anaerobic bacteria and the aerobic bacteria are both present in the live rock or bio balls in ther filter as well as in the display tank's live rock and live sand bed. You should beable to get the gas exchange that you need through the surface area from the display tank.
Surfer2 just an example for you I use a very large wet/dry system with bio balls, in that wet/dry system I also have a large skimmer , the wet/dry also is connected to a refuge system that over flows back into the wet/dry which is then pumped back to the display tank. The display tank has about 100 lbs of lr and a shallow sand bed. (the lr and ls do the same process in the display tank as the live rock in the filter do. My nitrates are a constant zero with this set up and my fish are very happy.
These definitions are just to clear up what Birdy and I are discussing for the novice.
Aerobic
A term used to describe an organism that needs oxygen to survive.
Anaerobic
A term used to describe an organism that lives in an environment with little or no oxygen.
Literally without air, refers to an area where there is no dissolved oxygen in the water. While necessary for some things such as bacterial reduction of nitrate to nitrogen, these areas can also produce hydrogen sulfide and other undesirable substances
tither
Member
If You Do Fish Tank, Do Balls And A Skimmer...water Change 25% I Time A Month Reef Do Nothing In The Sump With At Least 1lb Rock Per Gal In Tank Itself With A Juebear Denitrification Plennum On Bottom Of Tank With Good Skimmer And You Will Do 15% Water Change Every 3 Months. Keep It Simple And Its Not Confusing. I Have 17 Years Exp And Had My Own Saltwater Business For Years. Ill Help You Any Way I Can. You Can Call Me At 334-303-1918 And I Can Explain More. Thanks Phil
mudplayerx
Active Member
Live rock beats bioballs hands down, no contest. The problem with bioballs is that they break down the detritus so quickly that the bacteria in the rest of the tank becomes starved...eventually leading to excess nitrates about 2 years down the road.
Also, bioballs are like crushed coral... they trap detritus.
ps- thought I'd clear up the issue on bacteria. Aerobic bacteria do not need oxygen to survive, they are just not harmed by the presence of atmospheric oxygen. They have chemicals called catalase and oxidase which break down oxygen and hydrogen peroxide.
Also, bioballs are like crushed coral... they trap detritus.
ps- thought I'd clear up the issue on bacteria. Aerobic bacteria do not need oxygen to survive, they are just not harmed by the presence of atmospheric oxygen. They have chemicals called catalase and oxidase which break down oxygen and hydrogen peroxide.
mr_bill
Active Member
Originally Posted by mudplayerx
Live rock beats bioballs hands down, no contest. The problem with bioballs is that they break down the detritus so quickly that the bacteria in the rest of the tank becomes starved...eventually leading to excess nitrates about 2 years down the road.
Also, bioballs are like crushed coral... they trap detritus.
ps- thought I'd clear up the issue on bacteria. Aerobic bacteria do not need oxygen to survive, they are just not harmed by the presence of atmospheric oxygen. They have chemicals called catalase and oxidase which break down oxygen and hydrogen peroxide.
I've heard this side before and it does make total sense but....
If they are doing the job that the bacteria in the tank would do then what the point of having the bacteria in the tank if the balls are doing the job? Also about the detritus trap, I think their are two types of balls out their on the market, and I can't see how the bristle ball type would catch any more detritus then pores in LR. Also taking out 1/3rd of the balls at a time and giving a good rinse in salt water from a water change would clean up either of the balls.
mudplayerx knows his stuff, but I'm just not sold on why LR beats bio-balls.
Live rock beats bioballs hands down, no contest. The problem with bioballs is that they break down the detritus so quickly that the bacteria in the rest of the tank becomes starved...eventually leading to excess nitrates about 2 years down the road.
Also, bioballs are like crushed coral... they trap detritus.
ps- thought I'd clear up the issue on bacteria. Aerobic bacteria do not need oxygen to survive, they are just not harmed by the presence of atmospheric oxygen. They have chemicals called catalase and oxidase which break down oxygen and hydrogen peroxide.
I've heard this side before and it does make total sense but....
If they are doing the job that the bacteria in the tank would do then what the point of having the bacteria in the tank if the balls are doing the job? Also about the detritus trap, I think their are two types of balls out their on the market, and I can't see how the bristle ball type would catch any more detritus then pores in LR. Also taking out 1/3rd of the balls at a time and giving a good rinse in salt water from a water change would clean up either of the balls.
mudplayerx knows his stuff, but I'm just not sold on why LR beats bio-balls.
mudplayerx
Active Member
Originally Posted by Mr_Bill
I've heard this side before and it does make total sense but....
If they are doing the job that the bacteria in the tank would do then what the point of having the bacteria in the tank if the balls are doing the job? Also about the detritus trap, I think their are two types of balls out their on the market, and I can't see how the bristle ball type would catch any more detritus then pores in LR. Also taking out 1/3rd of the balls at a time and giving a good rinse in salt water from a water change would clean up either of the balls.
mudplayerx knows his stuff, but I'm just not sold on why LR beats bio-balls.
My guess is that the bacteria in the live rock is part of the food chain in the live rock, and its absence might disrupt things. I can also only imagine how bad it would be if your sump malfunctioned and the bioballs went dry, only to leave your tank without a healthy supply of nitrifying bacteria. These are just hypothetical guesses though... I have done no research and haven't really read about anything bad happening with bioballs besides the high nitrates after 2 years and the resulting hair algae blooms.
ps- I've never had bioballs myself, so take everything I say with a grain of salt
I've heard this side before and it does make total sense but....
If they are doing the job that the bacteria in the tank would do then what the point of having the bacteria in the tank if the balls are doing the job? Also about the detritus trap, I think their are two types of balls out their on the market, and I can't see how the bristle ball type would catch any more detritus then pores in LR. Also taking out 1/3rd of the balls at a time and giving a good rinse in salt water from a water change would clean up either of the balls.
mudplayerx knows his stuff, but I'm just not sold on why LR beats bio-balls.
My guess is that the bacteria in the live rock is part of the food chain in the live rock, and its absence might disrupt things. I can also only imagine how bad it would be if your sump malfunctioned and the bioballs went dry, only to leave your tank without a healthy supply of nitrifying bacteria. These are just hypothetical guesses though... I have done no research and haven't really read about anything bad happening with bioballs besides the high nitrates after 2 years and the resulting hair algae blooms.
ps- I've never had bioballs myself, so take everything I say with a grain of salt
mudplayerx
Active Member
Originally Posted by ReefNut
I would vote for neither... I agree with everyone that is saying the LR would be better but IMO neither would be best. This way there is nothing to trap debris... and with adequate LR in the tank I don't see what you are gaining by putting LR in the sump. JMO though...
The exposure to waterflow would be better...but I don't even have a sump so I'm just guessing. However, I do have bags of sand and liverock in all of my hang on the back filters. I rinse those a few times a week in distilled water.
I would vote for neither... I agree with everyone that is saying the LR would be better but IMO neither would be best. This way there is nothing to trap debris... and with adequate LR in the tank I don't see what you are gaining by putting LR in the sump. JMO though...
The exposure to waterflow would be better...but I don't even have a sump so I'm just guessing. However, I do have bags of sand and liverock in all of my hang on the back filters. I rinse those a few times a week in distilled water.
tither
Member
Yes Exactly, Use The Sump As A Sump!!!!!! Read My First Post About The Rock In The Tank.if You Use Bio Balls Most Of The Bacteria Will Die Off On The Rocks And If You Ever Let Them Dry Out Your Tank Will Crash.... And Yes In The Long Run With A Good Load In The Tank And Balls You Will Have Nitrate Problems And Do Many Water Changes. The Rock Is The Natural Way The Ocean Is Filtered And The Earths Way Of Protien Skimming Is The Dry Foam You See On The Beach When The White Caps Roll It In. Sooooo, If You Have Good Rock In The Tank And A Good Skimmer You Will Have Many Years Of Happy Reefing. I Have Had And Set Up And Maintained 100's Of Tanks Over The Past 17 Years And Im Telling Your From Proven Experience. Look At The Skimmer And Hailide I Have For Sale Under (tither) And Check The Tanks... Hope This Helps...it Seems To Be Alot Of Back And Forth. Just Sharing With You What I Know To Be Truth And Cold Hard Facts. Happy Reefing. Call Me 334-303-1918