Live Rock vs Bio Balls in sump

[fishfood]

I have read info that it could be more benificial to use live rock in place of bio balls. I'm in the process of building my sump and planing for the tank. I don't want as much LR in the tank. I intend to suspend it on Acrylic stands(maybe if i can figure out how). My lfs has a tank set up this way and it looks great. It is more open. I wanted to put the LR in the sump to replace that which is lost to make a more spacious tank. Will this work

 

[mr . salty]

This can be done,but unless you have a good prefilter the rock will not be any better than the balls.With no prefilter,excess food and fish waste will still be trapped in the rock,and contribute to high nitrate readings...In my opinion,if setup properly the balls are just as good as the rock.But setup poorly,they are both equally bad...So looking at it this way,the balls are actually better 'cuz they are alot cheaper than the rock.And don't require any lighting....

 

[wally]

If you decide not to use live rock and go with bio-balls, don't spend the big bucks that LFS want for bio-balls. Instead go to the "Dollar Store" and buy a bags of plastic army men. They work just as well and are WAY cheaper.

 

[seabass]

If I where you and didnt want to much live rock in your tank, than just skip the bio balls, put a few liverock in your sump and get yourself a good skimmer

 

[mr . salty]

That whole "plastic army guy" thing is a JOKE.They have no where near the surface area that bio balls do...That is the whole reason for using them.You might as well fill the sump with plastic forks and spoons.You will get the same affect as using army guy's...I pray I NEVER hear that one again...Oh,by the way,I know someone that can build a quality sump for under 100bucks...LOL

 

[ironreef]

I agree the LR will host critters that will eat the waste. I like the open reef But if you use sand mixed with LR thats all you need. You don't really need all that lr for a biofilter. LS has more surface area than anything.That sand will go into your tank. And if you don't like dsb 2" will still be enough for a biofilter
[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Ironreef ]

 

[wally]

"That whole "plastic army guy" thing is a JOKE.They have no where near the surface area that bio balls do..."
Well Actually I was being serious. I used them in the DIY filter I have for a small outdoor pond (about 200 gal)and they work great. All you need is something for the bacteria to grow on. We have a lot of plastics factories around here and I know a TON of people who use scrap plastic pieces as part of many bio-filters. The big advantage of using things like them is that they do not trap a ton of dirt like bio balls can. All of those slits can fill right up with dirt rather quickly in bio-balls. With army-men the dirt washes away very easily and if you have a good stream of water moving through your filter you may never have a problem with dirt.
I am experimenting with the idea of filling up a long piece of PVC with plastic scraps and letting the water flow through it. I have a therory that by the time the water gets to the end it will have no oxygen left in it. This will give me very good denitrification as anarobic bacteria will thrive on the scraps. And the advantage of using PVC is I can use a "U" elbow and keep on snaking it around and around and around until its 20-30 feet long if I wish.
I have also used lots of different things for bio-filters. Lava Rock, Sponges, Foam, Army Men, plastic scraps, gravel, Sand, etc. Bacteria just doesn't care about what it grows on as long as it has a place to grow on. You will also never get a population of bacteria higher than they have food for, which is why tanks cycle if you add more fish. If you have a DSB in your tank (and you should)than that maybe all the bio-filter you need. Sand has far more surface area than anything else per cubic unit of measure.
I am sorry if you thought I was joking but I was being quite serious. I was under the impression that this was a DIY board, and experimenting with different things is what DIY is all about IMHO. I agree with you that bio-balls do have more surface area but a large volume of army-men would have a significant area as well at 1/10th the cost. I also think army men would have the same surface area if not more than live rock would.

 

[fishfood]

Thanks for all the input. I have ordered Live Rock on line in the past and it came with a bunch of broken off pieces or small pieces that I could use in the sump. I intend to order on line for this tank because it only ran me just over $3 per pound. I would use those pieces for this sump. I had also looked at making the sump a refugium but i just don't have enough room. I'm using a 20gal long tank to make the sump. The Protien Skimmer takes up half of the sump. I don't see how I could get a low flow rate in the sump without making different chambers, but the 20 is not large enough. I'll stick with a lot of ls in the tank and probably lr in the sump.

 

[broomer5]

If you use plastic army men, make sure they are all from the same army. Do not mix army men from other countries - or a fierce battle may break out in your sump.
If you do mix them - first take a pair of wire cutters and clip off the guns and bayonets from each army man, then place them in your sump. Personally I find the army men in the kneeling and prone positions to be the best. Stay away from the standing ones - they have a tendency to walk off or climb out of the sump.
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: broomer5 ]

 

[jedimaster]

I have also heard that plastic practice golf balls wqork equally as well as bioballs. I like the army men idea. My 5 year old son would love that. Although he may try and take them out.
Here is a question of a sort of extension.
I Have 160 gal tank and a 20 gallon sump. I plan to put a deep sand bed in both the sump and the main tank. about 4-5inches in both. My sump has 3 compartments. 1 for the pump and heaters, one for the DSB and one fo rthe bio/golf/army balls. I do not plan to have a large amount of LR in my main tank beacause, it is too expensive. I plan to try and use base rock, tuffa or lava, and seed it with some LR. I will have a skimmer as well. Do I need any other filtration?

 

[seabass]

DO NOT KEEP RADIO NEAR SUMP if your using army men in there! they tend to jump out at night and contact star command! just a warning, this is how my nitrates shot up over night...LOL sorry wally just kidding

 

[mr . salty]

Jedimaster,A deep sand bed will only work efectivly in a refugium setup.Not a sump that has high water flow(gph).The water needs to be in contact with the sand as long as possible(less than 100gph) for denitrafication to occure.A sump typically has a much higher water flow.But if you are just adding the sand for added bio media,then I guess that would work.And to answer your question,I don't think you would need any other filteration,other than your skimmer,of corse.

 

[clownman]

I think BIO Balls causes more Nitrate. My nitrate is very high and I think BIO Balls are the culprit. (Based on some of my Internet Reading)
On the other hand, Good liverock with lots of life in it. Some crabs would do better job. In which case, you will have to have a hybreed Sump which you can call almost a refugium (low pressure). Heck, just keep a Rufugium and Protein Skimmer. But you can keep a Sump to house all the stuff (ie. Heater, pump) in the sump and not in the Display tank.
I thought the Army Men thing was a joke. I was thinking about saying, May be we can have a Marine guard our Aquarium to protect against, pH, Amonia, Nitrate, Nitrite. Thus, we can call this a true "MARINE" Reef
But since Wally is serious, I am not going to say that.

 

[just_got_tanked]

IMO, I wouldnt want to get cheap with any of these other ways to have a filtration system.

 

[just_got_tanked]

I wouldnt want to add anything to my tank that wasnt designed for it. The measures taken by the manufactures of the aquarium products are to insure the safety of the fish. There can be chemicals that are added to some of the materials that people mentioned. They can very well be safe, but why take a chance.
[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: just_got_tanked ]

 

[ironreef]

ditto some plastics are known to leech.

 

[daluminum]

Any one ever heard of a (gonna get technical here) molecular sieve. Its a type of plastic bead that is used in vacuum systems as a "pump" it has about 10million times the surface area of a bio ball. Im not exagerating these tiny plastic balls are used to in part to pull a vacuum on large chambers. I need to look up in my vacuum's book and find out what they are made of. I believe most of them are made of zeolite. im not sure how this would work in a tank. but if anyone has any idea what they are.. you could try them.. Just my bad idea..

 

[daluminum]

and about refugium's. I know you have to have a low flow rate. I did some calculating and If my tank is 55gal's I turn it over 5 times an hour. and my sumps about 20 gal. I turn int over ~12 times an hour. which is bout 240 gal's an hour. which in 20 gal's really isnt that much. I stuck a piece of string into my sump to see how much the water flowed and it really hung pretty straight. So I dont think that an open tank sump with some substrate will have to high of a flow rate for a refugium. Just remember to cover up your bioballs or whatever to keep out all the light that you can.

 

[wally]

To me experimenting is all part of the hobby, in fact its the part I like the most. And if I can save a few bucks I'm even more for it.

 

[fishfood]

So I might decide to cut out the biological filtration that bioballs and lr would be used for and make more room for a refugium. Can i use a coconut mat as the pre filter? What type of lighting will i need for this setup? Just trying to figure it all out now before i turn my 20 long into the sump.