LPS vs. Leather

blkhawk10

Member
I have a 29 gallon tank and have a 4 inch neon tree leather, and just purchased an acan, and a duncan. I had a duncan before that died out of nowhere and I'm thinking it was chemical warfare by the leather. I was wondering if I should get rid of the leather to ensure the life of my LPS corals?
 

wangotango

Active Member
Leathers do release all sorts of bad stuff, but I've never seen it bad enough to completely kill something (maybe just stagnate growth, especially with SPS).
Best and easiest thing to do is run some carbon.
-Justin
 

blkhawk10

Member
I do run carbon, and the leather is about a foot away from the duncan and acan. The last duncan I had had about 8 heads the new one has 2, so maybe the leather hasn't noticed it yet? I would rather keep my hard corals over the softie. I was under the impression that the soft corals release toxins to kill the hard ones, guess not.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
highly unlikley.
leathers do exude terpenoid compounds that can inhibit various LPS namely euphyllia are some of the most susceptable to this. IF you do regular waterchanges its darn near impossible for a 4 inch leather to make your water toxic enough to even inhibit growth.
I would look to another source for the demise of the coral.
I had a sarcophyton that was over 12 inches tall and wide and housed duncans and eupyllia in the same 75g tank with no problems.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/3171497
highly unlikley.
leathers do exude terpenoid compounds that can inhibit various LPS namely euphyllia are some of the most susceptable to this. IF you do regular waterchanges its darn near impossible for a 4 inch leather to make your water toxic enough to even inhibit growth.
I would look to another source for the demise of the coral.
I had a sarcophyton that was over 12 inches tall and wide and housed duncans and eupyllia in the same 75g tank with no problems.
I have 3very large sarcophyton, and frags, and a lot of anthelia...and can not keep LPS corals anymore. As the leathers grew, the LPS died off. This is in a 45g tank. So yes, I think over time it will be an issue, and I would go one direction or the other in smaller tanks especially.
That being said, I doubt it happened in this case. But it is a very real possibility, if not likelihood, in such a small tank as the leather grows.
 

cranberry

Active Member
I made sure the LPS was never down "wind" from a leather, that they were never within touching range, I actively used and removed carbon and kept up on water changes. This is how I kept large leathers and LPS in the same tank.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3171944
I made sure the LPS was never down "wind" from a leather, that they were never within touching range, I actively used and removed carbon and kept up on water changes. This is how I kept large leathers and LPS in the same tank.
What size tank?
I think that in a smaller tank, with large leathers, over several years...it is hard to keep them from either touching (or touching another coral of any sort which will also elicite a war anyway). It might be less problematic in larger systems where dilution is an advantage. I run carbon, do very large weekly water changes...but believe that at some point, or at least with Euphylia, it will be a problem. that being said, these leathers look nice and aren't too finicky...just IMO not worth it if trying to keep LPS of value.
 

cranberry

Active Member
50g. 10 years old. Pruned back the leathers periodically. I actually had a wall of frogspawn on the top and a hammer on the bottom that met in the middle of the tank and blended. Large brains. GSP (another aggressive coral in the chemical department).
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3171951
50g. 10 years old. Pruned back the leathers periodically. I actually had a wall of frogspawn on the top and a hammer on the bottom that met in the middle of the tank and blended. Large brains. GSP (another aggressive coral in the chemical department).
Well, I definitely haven't had the same luck for sure.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Wish I could say it was still around. Whole reef died while I was in another country for 3 weeks getting married. I'm sure melting leathers was not a joy for the frogspawn which proceeded to polyp bail. One of the few times I ever cried in this hobby.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3171954
Wish I could say it was still around. Whole reef died while I was in another country for 3 weeks getting married. I'm sure melting leathers was not a joy for the frogspawn which proceeded to polyp bail. One of the few times I ever cried in this hobby.
Not to bring up bad memories :( but would you have a pic of that tank? I would like to see the positioning....
 

cranberry

Active Member
I know I have them on my harddrive somewhere... I KNOW they are sucky pictures so I'll send them to you privately.... LOL.
 

cranberry

Active Member
It seems I moved the corals. The actinic is the last photo (most recent) I could easily find without dipping into the backup-backup files. I had the leathers on one side with the flow blowing in that direction. The toadstool had just gotten removed because it was damaged by a pretty little nudibranch.



 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura http:///forum/post/3171940
I have 3very large sarcophyton, and frags, and a lot of anthelia...and can not keep LPS corals anymore. As the leathers grew, the LPS died off. This is in a 45g tank. So yes, I think over time it will be an issue, and I would go one direction or the other in smaller tanks especially.
That being said, I doubt it happened in this case. But it is a very real possibility, if not likelihood, in such a small tank as the leather grows.
Like I said one four inch leather in a tank with regular water changes is not a likley suspect for a sudden death of a coral.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/320116/pics-from-today-im-home-sick
this is my tank a while ago... the leahter is a little larger than 4 inches. and so are all the LPS. the tank is a 75g. (sorry it was the first picture I found with a decent shot of my leather he's not full size in this pic), during that time I housed several euphyllia species and many other lps without problems. you can house leathers with LPS, providing you do ample water changes and run ample carbon...
it can definitely a problem in smaller tanks or houseing many large specimens of leather (sarcophyton are notorious for this), or if you dont do regular large waterchanges, or run carbon. Its not very often you actually see the results of this, your case Ophuria is almost definitely due to the Large amount of terpenoid compound exuding coral in the tank. causing a cumulative effect (not necessarily cumulation of terpenoids, regular water changes somwhat limits that) but a cumulative damage effect of fresh terpenoid influx between waterchanges leading to cumulative damage.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Good discussion. I do agree that you can house them together, I did so...but carbon and keeping things separated will only work to a point, assuming your corals grow. And this is just a thing to consider. 29g is a small tank.
The second pic below (not a great one :( ) is what I consider to be larger leathers, they take up the majority of my 45g tank, along with Anthelia that I've let run loose recently. (I have another frag in the 4" range and another leather about half the size of those shown that are not in the picture)
I have observe inhibition of stony corals as these guys have grown, and must definitely agree with Eric Borneman on what I observed (google: borneman sarcophyton toxic reefs - it is the second article). This was the product of my own research into why I was starting to lose hard corals as these started to thrive.
These compounds are so effective that in almost no cases will stony corals be unaffected by them, and growth inhibition, local necrosis and death usually ensue contact of Sarcophyton corals. In other words, in a war between soft corals and hard corals, the soft corals will almost invariably be victorious.
Given this information, and the obvious complications that arise in a close system aquaria, it should not be surprising that there are beginning to be many reports of mysterious unexplainable recession of stony corals in tanks housing large specimens or many types of soft corals. Some stony corals seem infinitely more sensitive to the terpenoid compounds of Sarcophyton . Others seem comparatively unaffected. However, the obvious zonations that occur in the wild should be carefully considered, and it is my opinion that soft corals and hard corals should be minimally intermixed, if at all. Sarcophyton , being considered a highly toxic species, does not seem to be a wise choice for displays with stony corals. The soft corals are all beautiful and hardy corals in their own right, but if we as hobbyists begin to learn about habitats and the physiology and biology of our captive corals, we must also bear the responsibility of maintaining proper conditions for them. I feel that foresight should be used in planning reef aquariums, and it should be decided in advance if an aquarium will be a relatively easy and quite beautiful display of soft corals, or if it will house stony corals. Sarcophytons are exceptional corals that are fast growing, hardy, and reproducible. This makes them highly desirable, but just as we would not keep a parrotfish with our stony corals, Sarcophyton deserves similar respect for its own health... and the health of all the other inhabitants in the tank. The risk of one damaging other corals or killing fish is not worth the selfish motivation to keep all the species of a reef within one display.
So in the tanks shown above, I think it can be done. The leathers can be kept distant and are not taking up a great deal of room. However, in tanks where the leather certainly can grow proportionally large relative to tank volume, it is a very real issue with keeping them both. In any tank where they become a display piece, I think it is a risk (as you may not even see warfare yet it is happening).
I do not think it happened in the OPs case.
But, while on the topic,
I would not house stony corals in a small tank with leathers. IMO, eventually something will give. It can work on some scale, but there is a real risk. It happens for me that leathers are good for my situation at the moment, since I've lacked time to dedicate to the tank. Sacrificed color and diversity for movement and ease.
The first pic was like 5 years ago, with an variety of easy frags growing in (including the "baby" leathers). The second is now. It is a 36" long 45g tank. The risk with leathers is they grow BIG and people like them as centerpieces...instead of making the call to remove. Ya takes your chances


 

reefkprz

Active Member
very good discussion.
that, my dear, is a whole boat-load of sinularia, anthelia, cladellia and nepthia's its no wonder you cant keep LPS in there LOL.
I feel I should clarify my statement about "not seeing the results results of that very often" visually in a tank with a light stock of chemically aggressive corals with ample maintinence, you wont actually notice through the minimal effect the rate at which you LPS and SPS are growing slower unless your really sharp on your growth rates which can change at the shift of a few simple parameters by very small notches.
the most dramatic effects of terpenoid compound wars are definitely in actual contact. most stony corals use cnidocyte (nematocyst) in combat which when contacting and stinging a leather force a quick potent release of terpenoid compounds resulting in serious damage to the stony corals, generally flesh resscesion from toxicity.
in general tank setting, without contact, terpenoids are slowly released and can build up in your water to low levels that inhibit growth, and up wards from there depending on a few factors such as water volume, coral type (sarcophyton are some of the most powerful in chemical combat) but not to be excluded are the sinularia, and nepthia, (though not as toxic or potent as the sarcophyton, can still lead to deletorius effects), filtration, amount of leathers vs volume, number of different species and the various terpenoid compounds they exude.
Not all terpenoid compounds are deletorious in nature, for example, carotenoids are a terpenoid compound that plays many crucial roles in photosystem structure, light harvesting and photoprotection. very crucial for corals (hence the addition of carotenoid containing ingredients in coral foods), but I digress.
In summation I would say that there is no doubt that leathers of many different species can cause harm to stony corals. A reef keeper should be aware of the possibilities and house such creatures accordingly, (I'm not saying dont do mixed reefs) I'm saying try not to tip the scales too heavily towards such chemically agressive corals if you hope to house LPS and SPS in the same closed system and hope to have them grow or thrive. and definatly avoid fragging or damaging the leathers in the same system as the LPS and sps whenever possible. (I have broken this rule many a time) if you do be prepared for any possible detrimental situation that may arrise afterwards. Water changes in large volume, fresh carbon in large volume and wet skimming may assist.
I think we have all agreed at this point the death of his LPS in this situation was unlikley to have been caused by his sinularia or nepthia whichever it is. green tree leather doesnt exactly nail down a species for us.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
here I dug up an old photo of my leather nearly at its largest, you can see the LPS and the range away from them. you can see a frog spawn frag directly below the left side of the sarcophyton. I have to say this is proabably the funnest reef conversation i have had in a while. (What does that say about me? the discussion of one coral stinging another and the other poisoning it and the to whit, where, how, and why get me all giddy.)

 
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