mag 9.5 pump and overflow

selah

New Member
I am having a difficult time with my sump flow so I hope someone can help.
I have a 75 gallon tank with a lifereef overflow and a 15 gallon sump with a mag 9.5 return pump.
I fill the sump up to capacity and turn on the pump, the pump returns all of the water to the DT and the sump runs dry. The overflow works but it doesn't seem to keep up with the pump. Do I need a bigger sump or do I need a bigger overflow? I thought the lifereef could handle the 9.5 return.
I can restrict the flow of the pump with the ball valve on my return but I have to restrict the flow by almost half to get a flow that doesn't drain my sump!!!. Any when I turn the pump off for any reason and turn it back on, I have to adjust the flow again!!!
Any thoughts would be helpful because I am new at this hobby. Thanks:confused: :confused: :confused:
 

squidd

Active Member
Does the level of the tank rise to almost overflowing...?
The reason I ask is you just pumped 15 "extra" gallons into the display...how low was it to begin with...??
The "overflow" sets the level in the tank...and then you still need enough water in the sump to cover the pump (with extra room for "backwash" in a power out situation).
You may need to lower the intake "lip" (teeth) to maintain a "safe" level in the main tank and add enough water to the sump to keep a continous flow...
 

mburnickas

Member
That is a common problem with Fuges if you do not do some homework up front (nothing directed toward you). A lot of people do not think about this things until they happen.
The odds of you balancing the overflow and pump out 100% is pretty slim. If you do, play the lottery that day! What I will say is that you need to tee in a pipe that runs back to fuge. Doing this will insure the pump never runs dry; hence, it puts water back to fuge.
Do NOT put a ball valve unless you really
need to and have looked at all other options. I say this because it will added more pressure on you pump, add more heat to your water, and shorter the life span of the pump.
What size feed lines are you running from and too tank? Figure out the linear inches and compare it to the pump.
You profile says a 75 gallon (same as me) and you stated a mag9.5 (950 pgh). So the min dia is around 1.25 inches (1 ¼) and the MIN linear inches are like 14. Below the 14, you will run pump dry. Over that #, you will be fine.
When I say fine there is more to it then that, but it is a huge start if you meet this number.
I have a 1300 gph pump but did a lot of work upfront to see what I really have. In the end. I am only pushing about 800 gph due to mass flow rate loss, velocity loss, pressure increase, more turulant water @ certain points, friction etc.
 

selah

New Member
Thanks for the replies!!
Squid, the water does rise in the main tank but it hasn't overflowed because some water does come back down to the sump. When I lower the inner box on the overflow, it becomes swamped, and the water lever in the inside of the box becomes to high (in other words, it is not lower than the tank level), even after a few minutes of running.
mburnickask, the pipes from my return pump and overflow are both 1 inch and by linear inches do you mean the number of inches from my pump to the return? Do I measure my return line?
I do have T to my fuge that runs back to my sump and this helps a little but doesn't solve the problem and also causes a lot of micobubbles in my sump.
Thanks for helping me figure this out.
Kim
 

mburnickas

Member
Linear inches means measure the width and length of the overflow box in the water/tank.
I would put the line with micro bubbles in the very first conpartment of your fuge. So the water will go through your baffles and then have zero air before the “fuge” portion.
I say your overflow is too small, lines to small or pump to large.
 

squidd

Active Member
Dude, What's up with the "linear inches"...( I "saw" your linear inch calculator on another thread)...
I am flowing 717 GPH through 5 1/2" X 2 1/2" overflow box with a 1" bulkhead and durso "style" pipe...
This has been confirmed by a "bucket test" (overflow fills 1 gal bucket right at 5 sec)
According to your "calcs" this should not be...:notsure:
And I'm getting this off a Mag 12, 4' head, 2 90s...
Your 9.5 is probably only pushing 660...
 

mburnickas

Member
ok, dude:confused: if you reed some articles on overflows, pumps etc they tell you to use the linear inches to compute flow rates etc. It is not "carved in stone" but it makes it much easier in the long run.
I never said it can't be, just makes it WAY easier then trying to balance a system out.
Also yes, I could put a 3000+ gph pump on your system and not have a problem; just better have some ball valvs and some extra money for a pump and/or chiller down the road...that is what is up with linear inches.
I do not make this stuff up, just read about it from people with more time, money and experence/know-how then I have. And it also works!
Never mind the thermo and fluid mach. behind it.
 

squidd

Active Member
Didn't mean to come across as a flame...
It's just that I've pumped a lot of "fluids" over the years, and have never heard of "linear inches"...
When I went to the calculator...field vs. theory...didn't add up...
I run conservative numbers....maybe it's just "ultra" conservative...:thinking:
 

mburnickas

Member
Not a flame at all. Just trying to help you undestand. It is like gph and flow rates work but when I got my ME degree I understand why and why not. When things work (pumps) there is a lot of "stuff" going to in the background that will help the pump live longer or shorter. The pressure & heat are the two larger ones. Wear / fatique and others.
Linear inches just saves some time thing to figure things out in the long run. If you have a 3000 gph pump on a small over flo you will have to tweek the system out; but, if you figure out the correct pump, you just install the pump and, BAM, it is all set.
 

selah

New Member
Thanks for the help!!
My overflow box is 13 linear inches.
Today I was testing the pump flow and when I turned it on, it immediately pumped all the sump water into my DT and flooded the overflow box (not my DT). The overflow box doesn't seem to be able to keep up because at this point I am not able to lower it and lower the water in the DT. So it sounds like the first thing I might need to try is a bigger overflow box??
 

squidd

Active Member
Maybe...
What kind of oveflow do you have...? HOB...? What size bulkhead/drain line on it..? And what type of standpipe does it have..?
 

selah

New Member
My tank is not drilled, so I have a life reef HOB overflow with a one inch drain. I am not really sure what a standpipe is (sorry I'm new at this).
 

broomer5

Active Member
selah
I also have a 75 gallon tank with a Mag 9.5, but I chose to use a Lifereef "dual" overflow/prefilter.
Rule of thumb many use is that an overflow with a 1" drainline will pass around 700 gph ( about 11+ gallons per minute )
Two of these then would pass about 1400 gph ( 22+ gallons per minute )
But even going on this can be misleading.
Let's look at three tanks all using the same set up. A single overflow with 1 inch drain, and a Mag 9.5.
A 55 gallon tank
A 75 gallon tank
A 120 gallon tank.
In my opinion, it's the combined area of flow between all of the inner box teeth RELATIVE to the water surface area of the tank that should also be considered.
A 55 gallon is 48" X 13" = 624 square inches of water surface.
623 / 231 = 2.7 gallons of tankwater for every vertical inch of tank.
A 75 gallon is 48" X 18" = 864 square inches of water surface.
864 / 231 = 3.75 gallons of tankwater for every vertical inch of tank.
A 125 gallon is 48" X 24" = 1152 square inches of water surface.
1152 / 231 = 4.98 gallons of tankwater for every vertical inch of tank.
If you had all three of these tanks set up with the exact same sinigle U tube overflow with 1" drain, and all had a Mag 9.5, and you had the tankwater level "just at" the bottom of the inner box teeth ( tankwater just about to overflow into the inner box from the tankwater surface ) and you turned on all three pumps, in all three separate tanks, at the same time ...... what would happen ?
What would happen in a given time period ?
Without doing the math, it's clear that the smaller the tank RELATIVE to the size of the overflow ( available water flow area though the teeth ) the faster the tankwater will rise in the tank, and the more water the overflow would be expected to pass during that period of time .... be it seconds, minutes, hours or whatever.
If you took that same overflow/pump combination and put it on a 10 gallon tank - what would happen ?
The tank would surely overflow.
If you took that same overflow/pump combination and put it on an outdoor above ground swimming pool - what would happen.
The swimming pool surely would not overflow, and you would have just a trickle of water moving over the inner box teeth at first, and finally arriving at some flowrate.
That flowrate is whatever the pump's putting out at the installed head pressure.
If the Mag 9.5 is putting out say 800 gph at 4 feet of head, and your overflow can't handle it - then you have a mismatched overflow/pump.
Your choices as mentioned are:
Do not throttle back with a ball valve, but install a larger tee with a larger bypass after the pump output, and bypass some extra flow back to the sump.
Run two overflows by getting another 1" drain overflow and keep your Mag 9.5
Run your existing single overflow but drop down to a Mag 7
Throttle back on the ball valve until the system works - this I would not recommend for the reasons mburnickas stated regarding increased backpressure, overall pump efficiency, excessive heat and premature pump failure.
I actually run a Mag 9.5 AND a Mag 7 on my 75 gallon tank, and sometimes run both pumps at the same tim. The dual 1" drain overflow handles the flowrate of both pumps.
Note: If your U tube has any entrapped air in the upper most curve of the tube, then all bets are off.
An entrapped air pocket up in the curve of the U tube will dramatically reduce the flow through the U tube.
I doubt you have air entrapped in your set up using the Mag 9.5. It probably blasts water through the tube and forces out any trapped air pockets - but it's worth mentioning.
Finally - how is your drainline plumbed back down to your sump ?
Flex hose ?
Hard piped PVC ?
Turns / elbows / restrictions ?
 

selah

New Member
Wow, thanks for the great information.
To answer your questions..
i have the overflow plumbed with pvc pipe and have 2 45 degree angles.
I recently changed it to flex hose to see if it would help with the flow and it does help a little but it seems a bit noisier.
Any opinion on which works best; hose or pvc pipe ?
There is no air pocket in the U tube of my overflow, no problem there. If I got another overflow, would this slow down the flow through the U tube and cause problems?
So it seems that in order to keep a good flow through my tank that another overflow would be the best bet? Would it be better to just get the dual overflow or would buying another overflow work just the same. (this would be the less expensive route).
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help, I was just about to give up.
Kim
 

mburnickas

Member
I have Spa-Flex from overflows (2) to my fuge. Flexible tubing will cut down on the turbulence, pressure, etc on your pump. I have some pvc tubing and some Spa-Flex from pump to tank. I did this to cut down on the 45’s & 90’s.
Again I have (2) overflows that have u-tubes and I would just buy another one of them (in your case), cheaper too. I would not spend the extra $$$ on another duel overflow unless you really want or need it. Why spend $90 to $100 for a complete box when you just need another one to pick up some extra GPH.
Also as broomer51 stated you need to remove the air pocket from the u-tube. Once you do it once, it will never need to be done again unless you remove the tube from the water. The u-tube will always have water in it since both boxes will maintain a certain water level when on or off.
 

dankell

Member
hmm, after spending all the time to read all that info, in short...we had the same problem , and come to find out even though you may purchased the right return pump for the size tank you are working with, not all pumps work the same or exactly right, there are tolerances , there fore we solved it the simple way and used a ball valve to slow the pumping down and have no problems , i use a 9.5 magdrive for a 125 gal tank. no heating up or any other problems....good luck
 

mburnickas

Member
All I will say is that using a ball-valves WILL have an effect on the pump. It is not designed to have restricted flow.
 

squidd

Active Member
Pressure rated pump efficiency is rated on a "curve"...
As long as your pump/overflow combo are in the "ballpark" a slight restriction to "fine tune" will not hurt the pump, it is like adding a foot or two of head pressure...
Cranking down a 3000 gph pump to run with a 700 gph overflow would be out of the range of efficiency and affect the pump negatively...That's just common scence...
That's what they give you when you don't get a degree...:D
 

mburnickas

Member
I stated you can run whatever pump, for example 3000 gph, you want. I never said it is good for it. Again re-read the post. Thats what happens when .......

I will take knowledge over common sense since conmen since does not get a job. I also would not say anything about common sence to some people with a Dr in there name.
Ps. You stated a curve, what kind? Exponential, log rhythm, etc. Big difference here. So a few pounds will not hurt a pump. I beg to differ since again it is not designed to have extra pressure. It will effect the pump long-term if you do some basic math.
example, a few extra pounds of boost on a turbo will not hurt. Try and and see what happens. You would live to see it or you will see the intake or turbine blowing though the housing!
Again things are made to run as designed. Take some class and they will teach you this, in ME101.
 

squidd

Active Member

Originally posted by mburnickas
I will take knowledge over common sense since conmen since does not get a job. I also would not say anything about common sence to some people with a Dr in there name.

Well my good "Dr." a degree may get you a job, but it's common sense that gets the job done...I never said I didn't have the knowledge or the degree, so be careful there...
Ps. You stated a curve, what kind? Exponential, log rhythm, etc. Big difference here. So a few pounds will not hurt a pump. I beg to differ since again it is not designed to have extra pressure. It will effect the pump long-term if you do some basic math.

Do some basic reading yourself if your having a hard time understanding this...Specificly look at the flow chart for head pressure that came with your pump...First off the Mag drives do not come with a "recommended/designed" pressure to work at...It comes with an efficiency "curve" that was "field tested"...This is what the pump will do...
You cannot tell me that if your pump pushes "X" gph at 3' head, and you need, say 50 gph less to balance your system, that restricting flow via...downsizeing return line, a ball valve, or increasing the head height to say 5' head pressure will in any way harm the pump...sorry.
Again things are made to run as designed. Take some class and they will teach you this, in ME101.

I'll stay with my "reading comprehension"... Oh yeah, and basic spelling...
 
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