May this be a reminder to at least someone

E

eric b 125

Guest
I know how stupid this looks...because i think we all know not to do something like this. HOWEVER, I'm confident that someone else has something similar on their setup. I installed a GFCI and have smoke detectors under my cabinet, but I never took into consideration that extension cords have a certain wattage capacity. This thing ran for over a year without incident, until one day...

there was no smoke, and it wasn't because the cords got wet.
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
WOW....Glad it wasn't more serious
I have a small extension cord, but it is for a small PH....Most of my stuff run on those heavy duty plug in boxes (name is escaping me atm)
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
I don't have anything like that now....but I have done that on more than just my fish tank over the years.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
No reason why it can't be done if you're using the proper size/guage cord. In your picture though I see a 3 prong adapter plugged into the cord which has no ground terminals. If you're running a 3 pronged device on it then that's a big no no. These things don't always happen instantly but the excessive heat that the cord was under over time would cause the wires and contacts to degrade untill the point when something like this could happen.
With all due respect I believe GFCI (ground fault circtuit interupters) do infact rely on the ground in many cases. If something happens and electricity is sent through the ground they would/should most certainly trip. In cases like this though it won't necissarily detect an over loaded extension cord unless it shorts out. But that is why grounding probes are used with GFCI's...or at least that's my understanding.
Glad nothing bad happened to your tank or your house. Thanks for the safety reminder.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/382981/may-this-be-a-reminder-to-at-least-someone#post_3346167
With all due respect I believe GFCI (ground fault circtuit interupters) do infact rely on the ground in many cases. If something happens and electricity is sent through the ground they would/should most certainly trip. In cases like this though it won't necissarily detect an over loaded extension cord unless it shorts out. But that is why grounding probes are used with GFCI's...or at least that's my understanding.
A GFCI will work without a ground. It is designed to prevent you from getting shocked, as you mentioned, not to prevent electrical fires. Most powerheads do not have a ground. If it leaks current and you stick your hand in the tank the GFCI will trip even if it's not a 3 pronged plug. If you have a grounding probe then it would have tripped as soon as the powerhead became defective, probably long before you put your hand in the water.
 
E

eric b 125

Guest
As far as the GFCI is concerned, I'm not sure that the plug needs a ground wire, but what i had been using really goes against all common sense. But a lot of us do stupid things like this, IMO. I do think that if water drips onto a plug and the GFCI trips, it can prevent a fire.
This was caused when I had two 3-prong plugs (with adapters) plugged into a cheap extension cord with only two prongs. This was a result of overloading an extnsion cord. Those adapters are designed to ground plugs without a ground prong. There is a metal loop that is supposed to be screwed into the cover plate of the recepticle. The manner in which I was using them was entirely wrong, even though I knew better.
There are so many things that can go wrong with the amounts of water and electricity that we deal with, but I never took into consideration that there are limits on extension cords. I've had an electricain change and upgrade my fuse panel, etc., but overlooked the capacity of the extension cord.
 
blackjacktang

blackjacktang

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///forum/thread/382981/may-this-be-a-reminder-to-at-least-someone#post_3346195
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///forum/thread/382981/may-this-be-a-reminder-to-at-least-someone#post_3346167
With all due respect I believe GFCI (ground fault circtuit interupters) do infact rely on the ground in many cases. If something happens and electricity is sent through the ground they would/should most certainly trip. In cases like this though it won't necissarily detect an over loaded extension cord unless it shorts out. But that is why grounding probes are used with GFCI's...or at least that's my understanding.
A GFCI will work without a ground. It is designed to prevent you from getting shocked, as you mentioned, not to prevent electrical fires. Most powerheads do not have a ground. If it leaks current and you stick your hand in the tank the GFCI will trip even if it's not a 3 pronged plug. If you have a grounding probe then it would have tripped as soon as the powerhead became defective, probably long before you put your hand in the water.
That is why they install them in almost every bathroom. So if something light a blow dryier falls into the sink/bathtub, it will trip saving your life
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Right on guys. Yeah I know about the tripping from loss of current between the neutral and hot. I was just pointing out that they do also utilize the ground. If anyone has ever seen a ground probe the normal 2 prongs are made of plastic and are non conductive but the ground prong is made of metal. The gfci sensing electricity coming into the ground side of the outlet is supposed to trip when it senses that...no? I'm pretty sure it will. However I'm not an electrical engineer. My job only requires me to be an electrician half of the time therefore I only needed to study the basic fundimentals of it. So I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time. But it would seem to me that you most certainly wouldn't want a ground probe run on a standard outelt in the event that electricity is leaked into the tank all the ground probe would do is provi
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///forum/thread/382981/may-this-be-a-reminder-to-at-least-someone#post_3346195
A GFCI will work without a ground. It is designed to prevent you from getting shocked, as you mentioned, not to prevent electrical fires. Most powerheads do not have a ground. If it leaks current and you stick your hand in the tank the GFCI will trip even if it's not a 3 pronged plug. If you have a grounding probe then it would have tripped as soon as the powerhead became defective, probably long before you put your hand in the water.
Appologies, Bang. I think I just had a light bulb moment. I was missing a key piece in my understanding of the concept of protecting ourselves from shock through our aquariums by the use of a ground probe and gfci. And that was the idea that if you have two seperate circuits feeding an aquarium system and both were installed using gfci's...then in order to truely protect ourselves from shock we would have to run two grounding probes (one to each outlet/circuit). Because if a piece of equipment were to leak voltage into the tank on one outlet/circuit while the ground probe was installed on the other outlet/circuit then it wouldn't necissarly protect you 100%. But as long as you were using a gfci for each outlet on there respective circuits then at least it will trip pretty much instantly when you put your hand in the tank and hopefully not kill you.
So if you're a person utilizing two different circuits on your system then one probe is only going to protect you 50%. Am I getting this right?
Edit: No...wait, it would. What difference does it make which outlet the probe would be on as long as the circuit with the problem sensed the loss of electricity. Provided that there was a path to ground being provided. Hmmmm....
Don't mind me guys, I'm just trying to learn me sumtin here.
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
I think in a home electrical system everything is grounded to the same ground (earth) so yes only one grounding probe is required.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382981/may-this-be-a-reminder-to-at-least-someone#post_3346312
I think in a home electrical system everything is grounded to the same ground (earth) so yes only one grounding probe is required.
Agreed, Al. It all runs to the ground. So my next question would be about the ability of a grounding probe to proved a second path to ground if there is voltage in the tank and trip a gfci before someone sticks there hand in there. If there was no alternet path then how would it trip?
It would make sense to me that if the water is conductive then in theory a faulty power head could still run because the water is causing a connection to be made from hot to neutral on the powerhead. If that's the case then would a gfci sense that if there was no grounding probe? Or would it? Depends on the situation I suppose?
 
al&burke

al&burke

Active Member
I think what the GFCI senses is changes in the flow of electricity, whereby as short through the water to a grounding probe would be a change in voltage flow (if that makes sense) Someone told me once that electricity is like water - current is pressure and voltage is flow, I am not an electrical engineer
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al&Burke http:///forum/thread/382981/may-this-be-a-reminder-to-at-least-someone#post_3346349
I think what the GFCI senses is changes in the flow of electricity, whereby as short through the water to a grounding probe would be a change in voltage flow (if that makes sense) Someone told me once that electricity is like water - current is pressure and voltage is flow, I am not an electrical engineer
Total sense my friend. And neither am I. They sense a drop in voltage typically about 5 milliamps is when they trip. If there is a short then that's what breakers are designed to detect and trip for. So my next question would be how does voltage leak into a tank and not trip a break or start a fire long before someone has the chance to come home and find the problem before they stick there hand in there and wind up with a little suprise?
 
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