miracle mud?
- Thread starter hun25
- Start date
jer4916
Active Member
I have miracle mud in my ecosystem filter, i like it, personally though i do believe it is over rated....i spent $180 on my mud...and my tank seems the same as it did without it...but my tank is extremely healthy, and all my levels are perfect and i dont have to dose the tank for anything...so i would say its a good product...but imo there is to much hype reguarding its perfectness.
but i love my tank...looks good...but the stuff is to expensive.
~chris
but i love my tank...looks good...but the stuff is to expensive.
~chris
ophiura
Active Member
Hype, IMO.
Here is a quote from Eric Borneman, certainly an expert in the field of aquarium husbandry of corals (as noted in the big words
), and his opinion on the issue...
Let it be known officially that I strongly dislike the system - not so much that it works or doesn't (because almost anything can be made to work), but that those marketing it, making it, using it, and reviewing it have, to my knowledge, very little inkling of any of the issues surrounding it - and to me, that makes a sham, par excellence. One didn't need to know the composition of this substrate to make some very accurate suggestions about its use - as I think I did several years ago in a FAMA article called "Demystifying Mud."
Of course, my response here is hypothetical to your well pointed question and also hypothetical in that I have never used Magic Mud - nor do I plan to use it. The high iron content is obviously indicative, as we all well knew, of a terrigenous sediment. So the algae he uses (also a weak point using Caulerpa) grow well. The nitrates being produced by the bioballs similarly fuel algae growth. Mud, by definition, is a mixture of sediments classified by size and organic content. The organic component, being once living biomass, contains higher amounts of nitrogen and phsophorous...also encouraging algae growth. Eventually, this organic component will be used up, requiring more to be purchased all to the $$$ of the company and its suckers...err...customers. That, or you'll have a mixed siliciclastic sediment similar to putting playsand in the refugium. Why would you add more organic content to a closed system that, as a rule, is already magnitudes of order higher in organics, necessitating the use of skimmers and carbons to deal with it? I dunno. The reason its effective? Because you have a microbially productive sediment community, similar to carbonate muds in lagoons and seagrass areas. You have uptake via, admittedly lame, macroalgae. Sure it works. So does the same principle using sand, and probably more effectively in the long term. After all, if coral reefs thrived with high terrigenous inputs, you wouldn't see the amount of study being done to look at the effects of terrestrial nutrients and sediment loads degrading reefs worldwide. Duh.
The result to corals and zoox? Probably in most species, higher linear extension of a less dense skeleton, lower rates of calcification, and higher densities of zooxanthellae...possibly too high considering the light levels some expose them to, possibly lowering bleaching thresholds artificially.
Here is a quote from Eric Borneman, certainly an expert in the field of aquarium husbandry of corals (as noted in the big words
Let it be known officially that I strongly dislike the system - not so much that it works or doesn't (because almost anything can be made to work), but that those marketing it, making it, using it, and reviewing it have, to my knowledge, very little inkling of any of the issues surrounding it - and to me, that makes a sham, par excellence. One didn't need to know the composition of this substrate to make some very accurate suggestions about its use - as I think I did several years ago in a FAMA article called "Demystifying Mud."
Of course, my response here is hypothetical to your well pointed question and also hypothetical in that I have never used Magic Mud - nor do I plan to use it. The high iron content is obviously indicative, as we all well knew, of a terrigenous sediment. So the algae he uses (also a weak point using Caulerpa) grow well. The nitrates being produced by the bioballs similarly fuel algae growth. Mud, by definition, is a mixture of sediments classified by size and organic content. The organic component, being once living biomass, contains higher amounts of nitrogen and phsophorous...also encouraging algae growth. Eventually, this organic component will be used up, requiring more to be purchased all to the $$$ of the company and its suckers...err...customers. That, or you'll have a mixed siliciclastic sediment similar to putting playsand in the refugium. Why would you add more organic content to a closed system that, as a rule, is already magnitudes of order higher in organics, necessitating the use of skimmers and carbons to deal with it? I dunno. The reason its effective? Because you have a microbially productive sediment community, similar to carbonate muds in lagoons and seagrass areas. You have uptake via, admittedly lame, macroalgae. Sure it works. So does the same principle using sand, and probably more effectively in the long term. After all, if coral reefs thrived with high terrigenous inputs, you wouldn't see the amount of study being done to look at the effects of terrestrial nutrients and sediment loads degrading reefs worldwide. Duh.
The result to corals and zoox? Probably in most species, higher linear extension of a less dense skeleton, lower rates of calcification, and higher densities of zooxanthellae...possibly too high considering the light levels some expose them to, possibly lowering bleaching thresholds artificially.
mudplayerx
Active Member
Go to your local river and get a buncha silt. Boil it for about 30 mins, then put in your fuge, you just saved wasted money on silt that does nothing 
I wouldn't knock the stuff so hard, but the company uses false advertising.
I wouldn't knock the stuff so hard, but the company uses false advertising.
kdfrosty
Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
Hype, IMO.
Here is a quote from Eric Borneman, certainly an expert in the field of aquarium husbandry of corals (as noted in the big words
Originally Posted by Borneman
After all, if coral reefs thrived with high terrigenous inputs, you wouldn't see the amount of study being done to look at the effects of terrestrial nutrients and sediment loads degrading reefs worldwide. Duh!
Sounds knowledgeable, but geez!! Like we knew that lots of studies were being done on "terrigenous inputs" effect on a reef, and the conditions on sediment loads globally.
I'm assuming that this came from some type of trade journal or something?
ophiura
Active Member
Nope, that was a straight out answer on a board...
to yes a somewhat technical question (not "do you have opinions" on it). The quote is not a direct answer to this question but one I pulled because it is a pretty harsh criticism of the product from a very well known coral guy who makes some excellent points. There is more than price to consider.
Eric is working on his PhD and is on the ball. Big words yes, but real scientific words and a scientific yet "real world" explanation...a contrast, I might add, to the lack of explanation from the people who make the stuff. It is very very important for this hobby to have people who can basically support the hobby but be active and respected coral biologists and can bridge both. Hobbyists may find some of his scientific terms a lot to handle, but the scientific community is in large part quite unimpressed by the hobbyist community. They don't have a grasp on what has been accomplished, and people like Eric are critical to getting the message out to both sides.
Take what you can or want from the answer. But at least he can come up with explanations or arguments and that is not smoking anything.
I believe there are people who are wondering if this "miracle mud" is in fact composed of or very very similar to the FAR cheaper "laterite" used as a substrate in freshwater planted tanks. Which I can soundly say I would never consider using in a saltwater tank.
Eric is working on his PhD and is on the ball. Big words yes, but real scientific words and a scientific yet "real world" explanation...a contrast, I might add, to the lack of explanation from the people who make the stuff. It is very very important for this hobby to have people who can basically support the hobby but be active and respected coral biologists and can bridge both. Hobbyists may find some of his scientific terms a lot to handle, but the scientific community is in large part quite unimpressed by the hobbyist community. They don't have a grasp on what has been accomplished, and people like Eric are critical to getting the message out to both sides.
Take what you can or want from the answer. But at least he can come up with explanations or arguments and that is not smoking anything.
I believe there are people who are wondering if this "miracle mud" is in fact composed of or very very similar to the FAR cheaper "laterite" used as a substrate in freshwater planted tanks. Which I can soundly say I would never consider using in a saltwater tank.
ophiura
Active Member
There are certainly many opinions on it and probably many successful ways to do it. Certainly that is true of tanks in general. I personally do not currently have a fuge...a girl can dream but I don't have one so I can't give you specifics on how I would set one up. It would involve aragonite sand - a deep sand bed, with macroalgae (probably not caulerpa but if it was free...), LR rubble, etc. If you want a truly honest answer it would be I would set one up DIY with whatever I can come across...much as I have done my tank...except I would NOT use miracle mud or anything that I can't figure out what is in it. I don't by hype.
As for Borneman, well, the guy has an article list a mile long so you may just want to google his name and some terms and see what comes up. But be prepared for some scientific terminology
LOL
jer4916
Active Member
I said earlier that i have miracle mud and that it is over priced...thats a true statement, but i do want to let those of you know who do want the product...i NEVER have to dose my tank...all my levels are perfect...and all my corals are taking off...my tank does amazing...its my first reef and i literally do nothing but add fish..and feed...and add water to the tank to make up for evap.....
so im not saying miracle mud is behind all of it...but im sure it helps... personal choice for everyone.
~chris
so im not saying miracle mud is behind all of it...but im sure it helps... personal choice for everyone.
~chris
mudplayerx
Active Member
Laterite is a ripoff too Sure it works, but if you live in the south, you can just dig a hole in the back yard, and the soil has the same chemical composition as laterite.
All of my freshwater tanks have a bottom layer of 1/2" green moss, a middle layer of 1" dirt (from the backyard), and a top layer of 2" white sand. While I do weekly doses of liquid fertilizer and monthly doses of solid fertilizer that I push into the substrate.... the dirt from the backyard functions exactly like laterite
ps- I also inject carbon dioxide into the tank and the plants are so lush that I have flowers sticking out of all the tanks...its really quite unbelieveable....all from backyard dirt I experimented with 3 years ago.
Sure it works, but if you live in the south, you can just dig a hole in the back yard, and the soil has the same chemical composition as laterite. All of my freshwater tanks have a bottom layer of 1/2" green moss, a middle layer of 1" dirt (from the backyard), and a top layer of 2" white sand. While I do weekly doses of liquid fertilizer and monthly doses of solid fertilizer that I push into the substrate.... the dirt from the backyard functions exactly like laterite
ps- I also inject carbon dioxide into the tank and the plants are so lush that I have flowers sticking out of all the tanks...its really quite unbelieveable....all from backyard dirt I experimented with 3 years ago.
ophiura
Active Member
Originally Posted by mudplayerx
Laterite is a ripoff too Sure it works, but if you live in the south, you can just dig a hole in the back yard, and the soil has the same chemical composition as laterite.
EXACTLY! Laterite is pretty expensive in stores...you know, $25 or something. If they are indeed selling something that has a lot of laterite in it for $150 or whatever...that's quite a marketing strategy. You can use it for saltwater. You can use it for freshwater. Brilliant! The question is would you take the substrate in your planted tanks - or dig up dirt from the yard, LOL (lucky, BTW) and put it in your refugium on your saltwater tank? It may work, but it isn't a natural reef like system.
Laterite is a ripoff too
Sure it works, but if you live in the south, you can just dig a hole in the back yard, and the soil has the same chemical composition as laterite.EXACTLY! Laterite is pretty expensive in stores...you know, $25 or something. If they are indeed selling something that has a lot of laterite in it for $150 or whatever...that's quite a marketing strategy. You can use it for saltwater. You can use it for freshwater. Brilliant! The question is would you take the substrate in your planted tanks - or dig up dirt from the yard, LOL (lucky, BTW) and put it in your refugium on your saltwater tank? It may work, but it isn't a natural reef like system.