Mixing Horse Breeds

sueandherzoo

Active Member
As some of you know I had four adult seahorses in a 46 gallon bowfront: one pair of Southern Erectus and then a month later added one pair of red Reidi (even though they've always been yellow). A few weeks ago my male Reidi died (healthy one day, dead the next) and I assumed it was from aiptasia because I found a huge one when I moved some rock to remove his body. A few days ago my female Erectus died. She was acting reclusive for a day or so, stopped eating, and was gone the next day.
Obviously I'm going to want to get another pair of horses since this tank was set up exclusively for seahorses but I've since learned that mixing breeds is not a good idea. I have one Erectus and one Reidi now.... what should the new pair be?
I'm guessing probably Reidi but almost lean towards erectus because I really would like to try my hand at raising fry someday and the Reidi are much more difficult, right?
Sue
 

teresaq

Active Member
you probable dont want to know what I will say HEHEHEHEHE
Set up another tank.
move the reidi to the new tank
move the Erectus to QT
completely clean the 46 gal-- bleach everything you can
reset up the 46 gal
add the erectus
clean qt - let cycle buy new reidi - add to reidi tank
clean qt - let cycle buy new erectus -- add to erectus tank

buy two or three 20 gal, cycle and add fry
 

sueandherzoo

Active Member
LOL You really did have me "laughing out loud" after I read that. At first I thought the only line you wrote was that I wouldn't want to know what you'd say, and then I scrolled down.
I'll tell you what -- I will seriously entertain the idea and HOPE my sanity and good judgment kick in and tell me NOT to follow those suggestions. Sure, what the heck, only four tanks running now - what's one or two more????
LOL
Sue
 

reefnutpa

Member
Personally I would be leery of adding other seahorses to a tank where there were 1, possibly 2 unexplained deaths. But that's just me.
With that said, if I were seriously considering my hand at breeding I would want the peace of mind of knowing the parents are in a tank that is free of pathogens. Otherwise, I'd always wonder if "the tank" was causing things to go wrong if I wasn't successful. Peace of mind is a wonderful thing.
It's expensive to start over, so if that's not an option... I would personally remove the remaining Reidi and let the sole Erectus in that tank. Do a few large water changes to dilute any pathogens....clean the heck out of all filters, tubes, airlines, etc...and if the sole Erectus is still doing well after a few weeks then add another trio (so you end up with 2 pair) of Erectus.
Tom
 

teresaq

Active Member
Tom, you dont think seperating them, qting them and sterilizing the tank they shared would be ok.
I was saying set up a tank for the reidi, adding it after it cycled, move the erectus to a cycled qt tank. after the 46 was cleaned and sterilized, cycled, move the erectus back to that tank. Leaving the reidi in its own tank.
Wouldnt sterilizing the tank rid it of any unwanted pathogens.
T
Just trying to learn
 

novahobbies

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by ReefNutPA
http:///forum/post/2968177
I would personally remove the remaining Reidi and let the sole Erectus in that tank. Do a few large water changes to dilute any pathogens....clean the heck out of all filters, tubes, airlines, etc...and if the sole Erectus is still doing well after a few weeks then add another trio (so you end up with 2 pair) of Erectus.
Tom

+1 with this. Although I personally love H. reidis, I think if you really want to make your life easier at fry-raising you should go with the southern erectus.
I don't know why I got lucky with my mixed tank, but I'm not going to be the fool who questioned why the wind blows. My single H. erectus has been fine with my reidis....knock on wood....... I just make darn sure everyone gets enough to eat. At this point I'm thinking I must be the exception, not the rule, and would discourage anyone else from attempting mixed species. Live and (hopefully!!!) learn!
 

novahobbies

Well-Known Member
Of course, given unlimited funds, I'm definitely warming to Teresa's idea. How many tanks can we fit in the house....... hey, we don't need a bed in the bedroom, do we???
 

sueandherzoo

Active Member
Ugh. I'm totally confused. I think I need to stew on this for a few days, especially since I don't have the time to do any major re-tanking during the week anyway.
What "pathogens" are we assuming are in this tank? Are we thinking that some strain of bacteria came in with the Reidi? If so, I can't imagine that anything short of tearing the tank apart and sterilizing everything and starting from scratch would suffice. Either that, or if it's a pathogen common to Reidi, then the male Erectus may soon be affected and gone, too.
Regarding raising fry, I'm not sure how important that is to me right now. Perhaps I'm better off with Reidi so I WON'T be tempted to try raising them. Soon spring will be here and most of my time and energy will be back outdoors working on the ponds and the fishtanks will need to be stable and non-demanding -- maybe "fry" should be a project I think about NEXT winter when I shut down my ponds.
Need to see how I feel about all this in a few days but keep the thoughts coming - I certainly need all the input I can get.
Sue
 

reefnutpa

Member
Teresa..... your way is the BEST way. But since I didn't think Sue was open to that idea by her humorous comments, I was suggesting the next best idea :)
It takes time to tear down a tank, kill/sterilize the live rock and sand for re-use, set it back up and wait for the 4-6 week cycle. During that time the QT tanks need to be maintained for water quality - and it's a lot of work tending to uncycled QT tanks for that length of time. If it's an option, it's undoubtedly the best way to go. A more expensive way is tear the tank down, toss the live rock - or use it in a reef/fish-only tank - and purchase new live rock to cut down the cycle time.
The ONLY way to be sure no hidden pathogens are lurking in the tank (which includes the pods, etc) is to sterilize everything. The next best thing, which makes the tank "safer" (but not 100% safe beyond a doubt) is the suggestion I made.
Sue, the most common issue is Vibrio infections. Other pathogens, internal parasites can also be an issue. Nothing can be confirmed without an examination by a pathologist.
Many are of the belief, and evidence does support the fact, that Erectus may carry a species-specific variation of Vibrio or a pathogen that other species have no immunity to. This is supported by the fact most, but not all, of those who have failed with mixed tank had Erectus involved. Either the Erectus were added first and all other species perish shortly after they were added or the other species were in the tank first and after Erectus were added the first species (which were fine and healthy) suddenly died shortly after the addition of the Erectus.
There are really two ways to go. The option Teresa initially gave which really is the best way.....sterilizing the tank and re-cycling and adding EITHER the Reidi or the Erectus. Not both - you'd have to decide which you'd want in that main tank. The other option would make the tank "fairly safe", which is pulling either the Reidi or Erectus now, doing many huge water changes and sterilizing of the equipment while letting the rock/sand in the tank. You'd have no re-cycle with the 2nd option and the tank "should" be "safer" for either the Reidi or more Erectus at that point.
There is also a third option....... you could assume the Reidi did indeed die from an aptasia sting, and one could assume the Erectus died of an internal problem and not a pathogen at all. If that were the case, then nothing needs to be done with the main tank.
Since there were no outward signs of disease from what you've said, I can't honestly say I would tear the whole tank down...even though that is the best route to go for bona-fide pathogen issues. Again, for myself, I would at least seperate the species (only because I've been burned in the past and lost A LOT of money) and siphon/clean as much as I could, clean out the filtration, and do bunches of water changes. If, after adding another horse or two issues arose again, then I'd know I chose the wrong path and would then have to gut the tank and start over. I wouldn't do it at this point though since it's not a confirmed pathogen/disease issue.
Sue, unfortunately there are no "you must do this" rules. You have to do what you are most comfortable with. What I may be comfortable in doing you may not be comfortable doing. Again, many different ways to get the same end results in the aquarium hobby. We can only present options for you. The rest is up to you :)
Tom
wow.... another rambling post by Tom LOL
 

novahobbies

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't a vibrio have manifested itself visually, at least in death? Most of those diseases show up as a skin lesion or rot, yes?
 

reefnutpa

Member
One more thought....and I'll try to make it a quick thought

In regards to raising fry - it seriously is very labor/time intensive. I mean seriously. As I've stated many times, cleanliness is the most important thing. Siphoning of the bare-bottom nursery tank at least twice a day - more if you notice lots of debris/poop on the bottom. Constant hatching of bbs, mixing of saltwater, frequent water changes, enriching, feeding at least 3 times a day. Splitting the fry into larger tanks as they grow so they aren't overcrowded - meaning more tanks to care for....no vacations, no 3 day weekends, nada. (Unless you have someone to teach how to care for everything).
It's not something you can do half-way and be successful. You're practically chained to the fry and their care for a month or two. Quite honestly, many times I hate it and am ready to ship 'em all out to anyone who wants them. Then when I calm down I look at the tank of 11 month olds and think to myself, "Dang, I did that!" and all the frustration is gone and it's sooo worth it.
Tom
 

reefnutpa

Member
Originally Posted by novahobbies
http:///forum/post/2968592
Wouldn't a vibrio
have manifested itself visually, at least in death? Most of those diseases show up as a skin lesion or rot, yes?

Yes, which is why I'm hesitant to suggest sterilizing the tank at this point because there were really no outward signs of anything that Sue reported. Any off-color skin patches, white tail tips, blisters/nodules, etc would be an idication of a pathogen issue. Since nothing was reported or noticed, sterilizing the tank would not be my personal first option at this time, as I mentioned in my post.
Tom
 

sueandherzoo

Active Member
Ramble on, Tom -- you write very well and many of us benefit from your posts.
My thinking today is maybe the "lazy" way out, but I really am not convinced enough that I need to totally tear apart the tank, especially since I just love the way it looks (the rock arrangement, the macro algae, the feather dusters, the invasion of the stomatellas, etc.) It would really break my heart and discourage me to tear this tank apart - I probably wouldn't bother to set it up again and I'm not ready to throw in the seahorse towel yet.
If these two horses (male Erectus and female Reidi) continue to look healthy I am going to be tempted to leave them be and add another pair (type not yet decided). I'm not in a position to separate them because I don't want two horse tanks and I also would feel very badly doing so - they seem to have really grown on each other and are hanging out together. They've both already lost a mate - I don't have the heart to make them go through another separation or loss if I can help it.
I realize that adding another pair is a financial gamble but one I think I'm willing to take, especially since I KNOW tearing apart the tank or separating them and having two tanks would be a financial endeavor too.
If, however, I add another pair and I continue to lose horses, then it will definitely be time to tear it down and decide if it's staying down or if I'm going to start over.
I guess my next decision is what type to go with. Since there doesn't seem to be any difference in personalities between the types (they all have their own individual behaviors) I need to do more reading to refresh my memory on the differences, pros and cons, etc.
Thanks for all being here - the support is wonderful.
Sue
 

reefnutpa

Member
Sue,
I have no problem supporting the decision you've made regarding the tank. As I mentioned, I too would be hesistant to tear down a beautiful tank. Since there were no outward signs of disease, I think your decision is a sound one and very understandable. I would still do a couple water changes, but I always do those if anything happens in any of my tanks that I can't explain.
As far as Reidi vs Erectus, that is a TOUGH choice. I've had Reidi - some of most gorgeous yellow seahorses I've ever seen. Most of my Erectus are yellowish-orange or pale rusty brown. While seahorses can/will change colors, I personally feel Reidi can generally be more brightly colored. Both species are hardy. Reidi, if I recall, can sometimes be a bit finicky with foods. It's a tough choice to make. Both are available as true captive bred species, so finding either won't be too difficult.
Plain and simple... I gave up trying to raise palegic fry so I no longer have any Reidi or Northern Erectus. If I were not into breeding and wanted a tank of healthy, active, colorful seahorses I would most likely have a tank of Reidi.
Tom
 

teresaq

Active Member
you know I also support your choice. I would hate to have to tear down a tank if I didn't have too. How about a few pictures?
T
 

dingus890

Member
I'd say see how the remaining horses do, and leave well enough alone.
2 horses are better than none. but see how they do for a few months before adding new horses. I have learned the hard way that adding just one more fish can kill off a whole tank.
Hope all goes well.Just go with your instinct.
 

sueandherzoo

Active Member
Thanks everyone. The tank looked so clean and pretty when I went home at lunchtime and the two horses were healthy and happy and frolicking -- I just can't disturb that. No tearing down - at least not right now.
Tom, I too, am leaning towards Reidi since they are apt to be the more colorful and since I think I (with your help) am convincing myself that I don't even want to think about attempting fry right now. Going into spring means a LOT of time and energy outdoors (2 ponds and outdoor turtle habitats) so I don't need to be tied down and torn with an all-encompassing hobby indoors. Come next fall when I am depressed and sad about shutting down my ponds, I can re-think the fry endeavor.
Something I said in my last post makes me wonder -- is there any way that too many stomatellas in a tank could cause harm or damage? I see a decent amount during the day but when the lights go out on the horse tank it's mind-boggling to see how many are living in there! I know they are supposed to be good hitchhikers, but anything in excess can probably be bad, right?
Sue
 

novahobbies

Well-Known Member
I've heard of tanks with huge 'infestations,' but they never do anything bad. Probably why your tank is so clean!!
 

reefnutpa

Member
Originally Posted by SueAndHerZoo
http:///forum/post/2969082
Going into spring means a LOT of time and energy outdoors (2 ponds and outdoor turtle habitats)
When I'm ready to move my Sulcata tortoise off it's tortoise table and outside for the spring/summer.... I'll be pesting you for pointers :)
I don't like to discourage anyone from trying their hand at fry. What I do try to do it state rather matter-of-factly that it takes a lot of time and dedication. I don't like to sugar coat it and say "hey, it's not that much work and doesn't take that much time".
I don't think a large population of stomatellas will have a negative impact on the tank.
 
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