Mixing Kalkwasser with Vinegar

blondenaso1

Member
There was a post a little while back about mixing Kalkwasser with vinegar to dissolve it and prevent percipitation. Since I read the article I have been trying it out and keeping a close I on my pH. The pH has remained stable, but I have not been able to check the Ca levels yet. I was just wondering how many other people have tried this or who do it and what your results have been.
 

xrayman

Member
How are you putting it in?Are you dripping it or putting it in with your top off water?I use it that is why i'm asking.
 

blondenaso1

Member
When mixing the Kalk I add about 20ml of white vinegar to a gal jug and then drop in 1.5 teas of kalkwasser. Then I just fill with RO/DI and drip as usual at night.
Anyone.....
I would really like to know hwo else has been trying this and there results.
 

scruz

Member
wow,acid vs basic,chemistry freaks- we need advice,seems like ythis would be defeating the cause of kalk,heavy ca to help losses during the night when ph drops...HELP,not a chem phd!
 

barracuda

Active Member
What is the purpose of using vinegar??? To dissolve??? I'm just curious where the mix percipitates?
I mix 5gal of RO with 5 teaspoons of Kalk wait over night and start dripping 24 hours a day. This mix is enough for a 5 - 6 days, then again... I clean Kalkwasser container every time before i refill it, but container and the drip system are always clean. The only thing i heard about using vinegar is to dissolve already percipitated calcium in the container just for cleaning purposes.:confused:
 

barracuda

Active Member

Originally posted by Tpuffer
add that stuff and let it drip in. I think that is what they are talking about????????

They actually discuss 2 things, adding vinegar to the kalkwasser and dripping kalkwasser.
I don't add vinegar to my kalkwasser, but i can speak about dosing kaklkwasser. You should do it all the time. You add kalkwasser to compensate all evaporated water in the tank.
 

fishfood

Member
I've been doing this for a while now. I first saw the post on this board and printed it out. Then I brought it up a couple of weeks ago i think. Without re-reading the article i can explain it to well. I can say that i have my calcium up at 500 since i started it(was at or below 300). I have also been using it in my new tank and in a little under 2 months I have coraline growing on the glass and power heads already. I haven't tested the water in a while so i don't know where i stand. Basically the reaction with the kalk and vinegar allows the carbon to be held in the water vs percipitating out. I'll look for the post and put it up for you guys if the page that had it is still up. I'm lazy a lot of the time and only use this kalk mix on my 55 about once a week and have to add water every other day to the top off unit.
 

barracuda

Active Member
Fishfood, good concept about the vinegar. I'd like to know more about it.
But,everything you have just mentioned about your tank conditions is happens to my tank without mixing kalk with vinegar (except Ca is about 460). I just drip kalk 24/7.
 

tangman99

Active Member
I'm not sure what article you are talking about, but there is a very good chemistry based article on another board which I can not post a link to (duh). It is explained very well and makes a lot of sense. I do it sometimes, but I just started dripping kalk last week so I'm still getting it right.
The idea behind using vinegar without discussing the chemistry benefits is it allows you to keep more Calcium dissolved in the the water to drip into your tank. If you evaporate 2 gallons per night and replace 2 gallons per night using 2 teaspoons kalk and maintain 450 in calcium, then you probably do not need the vinegar. On the other hand, if you only evaportate 1 gallon per day and you only replace 1 gallon per day with kalk, you may not be able to get enough kalk to dissolve in 1 gallon of water to keep your calcium levels up. This is where the vinegar would help because you could disolve more kalk in that 1 gallon of make up water.
Is that clear as mud?
 

blondenaso1

Member
I was surpirised to see this post dug up. SInce this post I have been using vinegar in my Kalk with no effect, actually the contrairy. The coraline and growth of my SPS corals aring taking off. Yes, the vinegar does allow you to dissolve more CaOH in the water.
 

barracuda

Active Member
Cool TangMan99,
So what vinegar you should use for this purpose? What we've got in the stores here is 5% white vinegar. So, this stuff should be used or....?
And how much vinegar/gal of water?
Thanks.
 

fishfreek

Active Member
I have tried this as well and confirm the same results fishfood and tangman99 found. My Ca was 490-500 a day after adding the solution. Before adding the white 5% vinegar/kalk, (just dripping kalk) my Ca was 400 ppm. It does allow more Ca to be dissovled and used. The only draw back i found was, that it was difficult to regulate the amount of vinegar/kalk the tank used/needed. I always seemed to overshoot my goal of 450 ppm. I did not pay as much attension to my alk readings though, and wish i would have.
Did anyone keep track of their alk readings and how it was effected by adding vinegar to the kalk solution???
 

fishfreek

Active Member
When i tried it, i used about 5ml of 5% white vineger and 3/4 tsp kalk to 1/2 gal of top off water.
I may have gotten very high Ca results in my system when i tried this because of too much kalk. I now add 1/2 tsp of kalk to my top off. HTH
 

fishfood

Member
Here is the section that explains some things. Hope this helps everyone.
"llowell: When Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser) is slowly dripped into your aquarium, it captures free Carbon Dioxide present in the tank water and converts it to Bicarbonate ions (which is a good thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(CO2) <==> Ca++ + 2(HCO3-)
If you drip too fast or if there is not enough Carbon Dioxide available in the water, your shiny new Bicarbonate ions will be converted to Carbonate ions (a bad thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(HCO3-) <==> Ca++ + 2(CO3--) + 2 H2O
The Carbonate ions formed will make the Ca++ you are trying to add to your tank get wasted by the useless precipitation of Calcium Carbonate -- the white stuff you are seeing.
So, too rapid addition of Kalk may actually cause the Calcium and Alkalinity in your tank to go DOWN instead of UP (a bad thing), like this:
Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) + Ca++ + 2(OH-) <==> 2 CaCO3 + 2 H2O
In the above reaction, a Calcium ion and two Bicarbonate ions from the aquarium combine to form solid calcium carbonate -- the white stuff you are getting in your tank, which is really just a kind of sand.
This can happen even with a slow drip of Kalk if there is not enough CO2 in your water -- something you can't easily control.
To avoid this, try mixing and adding your Kalkwasser like this: pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid, and then dilute to 1 liter (1 quart) volume with either RO/DI water, or even tank water.
15 ml is more Vinegar than some people are comfortable with, but I use it constantly with no problems. There should be no sediment in the mixture, or just a little bit at most. You can let the sediment settle out if you don't like the white flakes in your tank. I just drip the liquid and the sediment both into my tank.
Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.
First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.
Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.
Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).
Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers -- it has a great up side and I've yet to encounter a down side to doing it. I don't know why so few reefers do it -- lack of understanding of the chemistry behind it maybe -- but a lot more are starting now that some respected reef writers have discovered it and have recommended it and even written up detailed instructions for it.
By the way, you should check your pH before and after you do this the first few times to make sure it is not affected by the process. It should not be a problem. Also, if you don't already have them, get and learn to use Salifert test kits for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. The levels of all of these are related and affected by dripping Kalk.
Good luck."
"Polyp -- Actually, you don't have contrary information at all. The advice not to mix the Kalk too much is right on target. As the equations I posted show, if you are not using any Vinegar in the mix you certainly DO need to avoid mixing the Kalk powder with CO2 until AFTER it's dripped into the tank.
Look again at the equations. Both the GOOD reaction that liberates useful Calcium ions (Ca++) into your tank, and the BAD reaction that wastes the Calcium ions as solid Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), require the addition of different amounts of CO2.
The problem with allowing the CO2 reaction to occur as you mix your Kalk in a container without Vinegar is that you are mixing it in a comparatively small quantity of water that contains only a very limited amount of CO2. So, instead of having enough CO2 to go all the way to useful Bicarbonate ions (HCO3-, or Alkalinity) as you want it to, the chemical reaction stops at the undesirable Carbonate ion (CO3--). This is what sets the stage for the Calcium ions to precipitate out as useless solid Calcium Carbonate while still in the mixing container -- the Kalk mixes with SOME CO2, but not with ENOUGH CO2.
If your mixing container contained ample CO2, i.e., enough to fully react all the Kalkwasser as Bicarbonate ions, you would indeed then want to do all the mixing with CO2 right there in the container. It's only because there's not enough CO2 present in the small container that you need to limit the mixing to avoid precipitation.
So, you've actually hit on one good reason WHY we want to add the Vinegar to the mixing container -- the Acetic Acid in the Vinegar provides the equivalent of enough CO2 to take the reaction all the way to the desired end products for which we drip Kalk -- that is, to produce free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions in solution in our tanks.
By using enough Vinegar, we can mix to our heart's content right in the container, and don't need to worry as much about dripping the solution slowly into the tank. We have already driven the reaction all the way to the desired outcome, and provided ample CO2 to produce a balance of free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions. This, incidentally, is why Kalk is said to be "ionically balanced" - it produces a one-to-one balance between Calcium and Alkalinity.
By the way, the "stoichiometric" amount of Vinegar, i.e., that amount that provides the exact equivalent of enough CO2 to react all the Kalk powder to Calcium and Bicarbonate, turns out to be about 25ml of 5% Acetic Acid per liter of saturated (0.02 moles/liter or 1.5 grams/liter) aqueous Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser). I've used 30ml of Vinegar to a ½ teaspoon of Ca(OH)2 per liter of mix without any problem, but recommend about 15ml to those new to using Vinegar. This means that you still need to go easy on the stirring, because we are not providing quite enough equivalent CO2 to avoid SOME Carbonate ion formation if we get carried away with the mixing.
As to your question about using Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid, or L-3-Ketothreohexuronic Acid Lactone) instead of Acetic Acid, its chemical formula is C6H8O6, compared to C2H4O2 (commonly written CH3COOH) for Acetic Acid. The real story for us here though is in the atomic STRUCTURE of the two, rather than just in their FORMULAS.
While Acetic Acid is essentially just an Acetate ion (CH3CO2-) with an extra Hydrogen atom tacked on, Vitamin C has an alkene ring, 4 alcohols, and an ester in its structure. I can't say with certainty all the complex organic chemistry that dissolving L-Ascorbic Acid would kick off in one's tank, or whether it would be good or bad, but I think I'll let someone else perform that particular experiment.
As to the other questions:
Joe Mac -- Sand compaction can be caused by lots of things - high Calcium concentrations (above 500 ppm) is indeed one of them. I don't think that using Vinegar would cause sand compaction to occur through any new mechanism other than just by permitting the reefer to achieve high Calcium concentrations, and conversely that high Calcium level would cause the same sand compaction no matter how the Calcium level was achieved - with or without Kalk and Vinegar.
My sandbed is a mix of many sizes of Aragonite, with a lot of oolitic or "sugar sand," and I have never noticed compaction. But then, I have so many critters in there up to and including Atlantic Sand Cukes that there is little chance of compaction occurring. The fact that my sand is very alive means that I have to feed my sand so much extra food that I really appreciate the de-Nitrating boost that Vinegar provides, as the leftover organics feed my bacteria bed and really helps get rid of the Nitrates.
Outerbank -- No, I still don't store the Kalkwasser solution pre-mixed, because as I point out, the low Vinegar amounts used aren't quite enough equivalent CO2 to totally prevent some precipitation of Calcium Carbonate, which gets worse with time if the liquid is stored too long.
Finally, as to using Vinegar in a "Kalkreactor," I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with that device. "
 

scarybo

Member
This sounds very interesting. I drip kalk and have a couple of questions.
1. How much vinegar and kalk would you use to make 1 gallon?
2. Acetate feeds the bacteria..would that cause a nutrient problem?
3. What are the risks to your alk?
If anyone can anwser these I would appreciate it
 
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