need some clarifications about hypo

[infamous]

i have been reading alot about the hyposalinity treatment and marine ich for quite awhile now since i had my first wipe-out from both ich and velvet about several months ago. consequently, i quarantine and treat my fish whenever possible to avoid another recurrence[it happened again 6 weeks later after the first wipe-out when the 'fallow' attempt failed-- my fault] of that nightmare. i employ a prophylaxis of hyposalinity on all new acquisitions since it is the only treatment that is feasible and safe, in my opinion. but i am having some doubts about its efficacy.
most of the articles written about this treatment are sometimes unclear and occasionally, contradictory. most also don't specify the boundaries or limitations of such treatment. as a result, my search for enlightenment has only led me to even more questions... to state a few:
does hyposalinity have the capacity to eliminate other protozoan parasites such as velvet, brooklynella and uronema?
what is the maximum length of time that fish can be kept at very low salinity[12-14ppt]? if such period is extended, will it have any detrimental effects on the fish?
for terry...
in an article that you wrote, you specified a strain that is hyposaline-tolerant. has this strain already made its way in the hobby? is it possible that the less virulent strain already in the hobby evolve into this form?
i read in another forum that you intend to present a proposition in the future about a combo of treatments that is very effective against cryptocaryon. i've been itching to ask you this but, may i know what this is composed of and how it works?
i beg your pardon if i bore you, it's just that all these questions have accumulated as a result of me searching for the answers rather than asking them.
i would truly appreciate your response to this!
regards,
mitch

 

[infamous]

before anything else, thank you for bearing with me!
the reason i ask you these is because i have been running my main tank in hyposaline conditions for almost four months. i am getting a bit worried that such low salinity might eventually kill my fish. i have not been able to raise it back to normal levels because of a low level infection going on. the spots became very small, almost unnoticeable. it can only be seen at an angle at a particular fish's jet black area, like the fins of my white-cheek tang and flagfin angel.
though i can attest that hyposalinity indeed works, i find it only to be effective to some degree due to the spots i still see. but recently, i have been wondering if these spots are indeed cryptocaryon... so the reason why i ask you about the other protozoan parasites. which leads me, can amyloodinium, uronema or brooklynella exist and persist in such low level of infection? could one of them be responsible for the spots i see and not ich? btw, i started noticing these spots about 2 months ago.
my other explanation for the spots is that probably my salinity is not low enough considering that i have been using a cheap glass hydrometer. my current specific gravity is 1.0093 while a higher reading of 1.0105 was taken from my cousin's hydrometer. i tried seaching for a refractometer but only ended up in futility. i must admit that, following the readings from my own hydrometer, i have seen significant detrimental effects on cryptocaryon on my system. the fish survived and no spots became apparent on newly placed and quarantined specimens. but still the almost invisible spots persist.
what should i do now? can and should i continue with the hyposalinity treatment for another month or so?
regards,
mitch

 

[infamous]

Hello again Terry.
First off, let me explain that I do understand how hyposalinity works and how it affects the parasite cryptocaryon irritans. What I don’t understand are the occurrence of the highly inconspicuous spots that are on my fish; and what and how a low-level infection appears. I must state that I thoroughly comprehend your explanations in reefs.org about such mild existence of the parasite, it’s just that given the possibility that my salinity is not at the proper level strengthens the probability of its incidence. The doubt was a result of this.
To give you a more precise background, I must bring forth that I had religiously monitored and recorded the effects of different levels of specific gravity on the parasite, and noted a remarkable decline in its incidence from a test subject (a clown tang [A. lineatus] that I still have now) at a reading of 1.009. Furthermore, from an earlier measurement of 1.010 specific gravity four days before the addition of the clown tang, the parasite was still able to overwhelm a white-cheek tang (A. japonicus) that died 12 hours after the appearance of the white spots, in the same tank (my main tank)—though this might seem inhumane, it was never the objective. Although these does not conclude that my measurement of 1.009 s.g. is within the proper range of 12-14 ppt salinity, it does confirm that the level in my tank have a detrimental effect on the parasite.
Which led me to my other assumption of the probability of a parasite other than cryptocaryon irritans. I do acknowledge that this oversight is indeed mine, given the fact that I have no first-hand experience or knowledge with the previously stated parasitic protozoans. While an infestation of amyloodinium earlier when I was just starting out was quite swift, eluding the chance for me to analyze it. Nevertheless, your cancellation of these parasites as the likely cause is enough for me to heave a sigh of relief.
Now, to answer your question, I only noticed the spots about 2 months ago. There really is no adverse reaction from most of my fish but do observe intense, frequent irritation from the clown tang. I also notice regular, sometimes frequent scratching by a white-cheek tang while the rest, a few times a day. These are the signs that I have observed thus far.
I deduce that the only recourse for me right now is to get the proper equipment to test my salinity to explain what caused the spots and subsequently employ a treatment regimen when required. This being said, I wouldn’t take more of your time and express my deepest gratitude for your time and patience.
Regards,
Mitch

 

[infamous]

Hello Terry,
Sorry to bother you again but it is of extreme urgency that I confer with you again about the situation in my tank. About a week and a half ago, I bought a new hydrometer calibrated at 60/60f and as expected, the readings from this new hydrometer is quite similar to my old one, with approximately .3 ppt discrepancy based on the conversion table that came with it. I noticed that the salinity has strayed to 17 ppt without my awareness. I therefore opted to lower it down close to 14ppt and observe in the coming days if it will have any effect on the spots if indeed those were caused by crypt. To my surprise, the spots did not disappear and instead persisted. In fact, there was a slight dusting on the head of the white cheek tang last night, which eventually disappeared this afternoon.
I am getting overly concerned, lacking an exact diagnosis of the cause and therefore a cure. Having cancelled out the other protozoan parasites as the likely suspect, what do you think would explain this? I wouldn’t want to further assert the likelihood of amyloodinium as you have earlier dismissed, but isn’t it possible that hyposalinity somehow curtailed the virulence of the pathogens leading to a somewhat sub clinical infection? In hindsight, the clown tang became sick with intestinal parasites about a month ago but the pathogens did not take advantage of this. If this is amyloodinium, would adding chloroquine diphosphate in the main tank be safe considering that there are absolutely no inverts in it? How about nitrofurazone?
I would truly appreciate your quick response.
Thanks,
Mitch

 

[seaguru]

Hello all... and I bow to you Terry B. oh great one of the hyposalinity truths!
I have not posted for some time but felt a great need to share my experiences after reading most of this thread.
I have a FOWLR... just some live rock, an Imp A., a French A., a Naso (over 7 years old), a Blue Regal T., an Achilles T., a Niger Trigger and a Red Coris W. and various crabs and pods and other critters... by somes opinions a bit much for a 125g but what I want to convey is that over a year ago I Quarantined all my originally 9 fish in 3 rubbermaid containers (50/50/40g) all plumbed together in a makeshift homebuilt wet/dry (bio-balls) filtration system... (was upgrading from a 55g to the 125g which I stole from a friend cheap!--) For the record I lost 2 of the 9 eventually due to overcrowding (obviously)... one a Flame angel that did not do well and possibly somehow acquired Brooknylia (pardon for not looking up the correct spelling during this post) or had been caught w/ cyanide??? and the other a small yellow tang that just eventually got cornered again due to my overcrowding... (we all have our faults/weaknesses!) I learned my lesson at the expense of sadly loosing 2 more of my dear friends. And I gave a third fish a Kole tang to a friend who had a 70g reef only tank with no fish and the Kole has done well in his new uncrowded home!
I had done considerable research prior to my purchases from Saltwaterfish.com of most of the fish (already had the Naso for years) on what my Quarantine regimen would involve to insure I did not seed my new tank with any parasites. Of course I came across the latest and greatest hypo and was hooked after reading all I could find out about it. (I never did like using Copper because you never really had a grip on if you had the terapeutic concentration maintained even with the best test kits!) I kept my prized purchases in this setup for 2 months. (I am VERY patient, as I have lost many fish in my 25+ years in this hobby!) Did many water changes, etc. Also did a fresh water dip I think w/ some sort of mythl-blue if I recall correctly prior to putting the new arrivals in their temporary Quarantine home.
AND FOR ALL OF YOU OUT THERE TRYING TO CUT CORNERS!!! I BOUGHT ALMOST EVERY HYDROMETER ON THE MARKET!!! AND NONE OF THEM ARE AS ACCURATE AS A REFRACTOMETER WHICH I FINALLY BOUGHT LAST!!! (believe me I have compared them all against each other, etc.) SAVE YOURSELVES THE Possibility of not having your salinity low enough and purchase a refractometer, they are as low as $50 at some online retailers!
You will not regret it and your hyposalinity treatment WILL be a success!
ALL my fish did fine, all eventually were eating regularly. I forgot to mention that I did monitor the pH somewhat adding buffer intermittedly. (Next time I will probably use ESV-B-ionic or Kalk in a more serious attempt to keep parameters pristine)
O.K. after 2 months the 125g was more than ready and I transfereed my disease free fish to their new tank.
NOW AFTER ALL THAT YOU WOULD THINK I WOULD NOT LOOSE IT! BUT FOR SOME REASON I DECIDED TO EXPERIMENT WITH SOME CORALS AND AND SOME MORE LIVE ROCK!
BIG MISTAKE!!!!! BOY WAS I MAD AFTER MONTHS SPENT IN METICULOUS QUARANTINE.
YES MY "Ich Magnet the Achilles Tang" displayed clearly to me that there was an outbreak in my tank... (probably introduced via the recent coral or live rock additions!)
Don't go away yet, the best is yet to come...
I read some more and made the decision that I WAS NOT GOING TO LOOSE THIS BATTLE! I immediately removed all of my LIVE rock (I have some dead which I personally collected in Hawaii decades ago), and all of the inverts and crabs that I could find in the tank, I left my 1-2" of sand bottom knowing that all the life in it would soon be gone!
I moved all the stuff that Hyposalinity would kill to a smaller tank (10g or 15g) and set it up with a old hang on filter (the kind used in fresh water setups), heater, etc.
Since I now had decided to do Hyposalinity all over again in my main display tank... Somewhere in the midst of all this I had given the Kole tang away (before the outbreak) and had 6 fish left and could not resist putting in one more a small Niger Trigger (my first and last/only trigger) which I had read in many accounts was "reef safe" for some people.
I then (around October 2002) over a period of about 3-4 days gradually dropped my salinity to the required numbers as recommended by Terry B. in much of his literature/writings around 1.008-1.009 if I recall correctly (pardon me but it has been a while) or about/around 12 ppt (again I am straining my memory)... anyway don't use my numbers but read Terry's literature to get the facts for yourselves!
I am in the Navy and had to deploy for the soon to come conflict... and WOW get this, my ever so patient (with my addiction) wife learned to use the refractometer, maintained the salinity, (by keeping a watchful eye on my freshwater makeup "trashcan" w/ a pump/float valve setup), kept the pH buffered... etc. for about FOUR (4) months!!! Now if she could do it and she is an innocent bystander, what about you all...
Anyway she did have my mentorship in the form of occasional phone calls, and many daily at times emails. Not concerned with IF the fish were still sick or not, I eventually had her start adding salt to the (7 gallon) makeup water container/system... (adding another pump to it to stir it for a day)... and over about say 6 weeks she gradually brought the salinity back up into the 20's... (1.020-1.025) and eventually put all the inverts and live rock that I had removed back in. We even concockted a crude 3 or 4 water changes using this refill system to crudely make 7 gallon water changes weekly over a month's time before I returned to make several 30% changes about bi-weekly then monthly here recently. (getting lazy again)...
It has been about 8 months now and I have NO problems/re-occurances, nor do I have any medication of any sort in my tank. My sand bed is even alive again as I can see many pods proliferating in my filter (have not given up my bio-balls/nitrate factory yet) Furthermore I am SO PARANOID OF INTRODUCING ANYTHING INTO MY TANK THAT I QUARANTINE EVERYTHING, EVEN CRABS, CONCHS, CHATOEMORPHA, anything! For at least 6 weeks prior to adding it to my System. Note that I have only added crabs, conchs, live rock, inverts, macroalgae, etc. Although I have not added any new fish I do intend to give up my Red Coris Wrasse because I have learned that as he gets larger (currently about 4-5 inches) he will surely eat all of my crabs, etc. and I wish to keep as much diversity or get as close to a real reef setup eventually as possible. So I will eventually add one more "reef safe" fish in his place possibly and even if not I will be adding more fish in another year or so when I finally put my "retirement/dream 400-500g tank in my home". At that point what I am trying to get at is that I will be doing the Fish only hyposalinity quarantine method on all additions to my display tank. Believe me the Satisfaction of keeping your fish alive for years is/will be a true feeling of accomplishment.
So there is my Epic Tale. Take it or leave it, but I live by HYPOSALINITY!
***NOW JUST 1 ONE QUESTION FOR TERRY B. (I hope you did not fall asleep during my post!) ***
br />***If I quarantine live rock, inverts, corals, anemones, BASICALLY anything that IS NOT a FISH! Is there some way that the ich parasite or any of the other parasites dangerous to fish use any other life forms for a host or can "Ick" tommants (spelling???) stay in some sort of dormant stage even without a host (FISH or other life form if any) for over 6 weeks? Forgive my ignorance but perhaps I have missed something in all my research/readings?***
I REALLY DO QUARANTINE "IN VAIN". I will probably be keeping my new 500g tank as a reef only with no fish setup for at least 6 months as I stock it with everything I want prior to adding my pre-Quarantined "sterilized fish"... because after the fish go in, I will not add much else for I will surely be tired of Quarantining by then and will not want to chance messing this one up!!!
Thanks to all of you Dedicated fish lovers out there who share your knowledge, experience and views.
Regards, Joe.