Need some help

[alexa11]

OK. Today Lancelot (who i thought/think is a girl) has been lying on the substrate. There are no wierd cuts, spots, scrapes, or white spots on the tail or anything. The eyes are still fine looking, all fins are operational, and breathing doesnt appear to be very laboured. She/he was eating well and doing fine last night. I put her/him in a breeding net, held her gently and rubbed her area where the pouch should be, in case there is an air bubble or something. Occasionally she will then start swimming, but go up to the surface as if gulping air, swim a bit sparatically, then go back to lying on the substrate. Might she have swim bladder desease, and if so, what should I do? thanks for your help!

 

[alexa11]

should I qt her?

 

[novahobbies]

It doesn't sound like gas bubble disease, if that's what you mean. There are two kinds, internal GBD and external GBD, where a bubble of air gets trapped between the horses integumentary layers. Either way, the horse woulld have trouble staying AWAY from the surface of the tank.
Some captive bred horses suffer from an underdeveloped swim bladder: they did not properly inflate their swim bladders during their pelagic fry stage of develpment. Because of this, as they grow they begin to develop swimming problems. Much like the opposite of GBD, these "sliders," as they are commonly termed, have difficulty swimming up from the substrate. However, this is not a problem that suddenly develops.....a slider is pretty obvious from the get-go.
I suggest you post this on the other common seahorse forum....it's an org site that requires your registration to post, but there are a lot of good amateur diagnosticians on that site who might be able to help. In the meantime, unless the horse looks physically ill by displaying spots, sloughing of skin, or cloudy eyes, you might want to consider keeping her inn the main tank for her own comfort. Set up the HT now, though...just in case. I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but I hope you can find the answers you need!

 

[alexa11]

OK thanks, yes i did do a google search and went to that site, but didnt see anything in the write-ups. The HT is already set up. she hasnt exibited any of this behavior until today. She wont grip with her tail either.....

 

[alexa11]

I cant tell what to do. I did a partial water change, and I put her in the quarantine tank. She is not moving at all now, just breathing. I set her on a plant so she is off the sand bed. still no sign of any spots, fungus, or eye/skin or fin irritation. She was eating great and active yesterday. the other horse seems to be ok. Is there anything I should be putting in the water in the QT for her? since i see no obvious irritations, and the searches I have done don't really have info on this, i dont know what to do. Although I did notice the tank is running a bit warmer today, so I will put a smaller heater in to lower the temp. It was at 79-80. Would this possibly be the cause?

 

[novahobbies]

Alexa,
Although I would not call this the absolute cause, the high temperature might be affecting your female in some way. Saltwater does not have as high of an oxygen saturation level as freshwater, and the warmer the water, the less oxygen the water can "carry." This is not much of a problem with other bony fishes, but it can be an issue with seahorses, who have very primitive gill structures. The cooler the water, the more oxygen saturation the water will have.
You should definitely begin to lower the temp in your seahorse tank. Don't do it drastically, as this will be a shock to the animals, but at the very least, turn the heater down, or off all together, for the time being. Putting a fan across the top of the water also helps lower the tank's water temp. Remember, seahorses are mostly low-tropic to temperate animals, so they prefer temps around 74-75!
Usually, the first sign of O2 deprivation in seahorses is lethargy, then gasping. It's pretty obvious with most seahorses when they are laboring to breathe. Like any animal, they are trying to move as much medium (saltwater, air, you get the idea) through their system to absorb as much O2 as possible. So, like us, they look like they're gasping. I've never heard of a horse passing away from O2 dep. WITHOUT looking like this, but it's entirely possible.
I really wish I could see the horse...or get Pete Giwojna in here to read this. If you haven't done this yet, why don't you grab a small air pump w/ an air stone and bubble air in the hospital tank for the time being, and of course make sure the temp is dropping down in the hospital tank as well.
I don't know if this will help. The horse's inability to hitch to anything worries me....you're sure there are no skin lesions around the tail area?? I'm glad the other horse seems to be doing well, but you may want to watch him closely also. If it is an O2 problem, he may be suffering as well, but not as much. Do you have a protein skimmer in the tank? Any kind....I'm looking for something to help increase surface area for O2 absorbtion more than actual "skimming" abilities.
I hope this helps some. I'm really sorry you're going through this.....sick seahorses, somehow, always seem to bother us as aquarists than many other fish ailments. It may seem callous, but it's true. We're all sending happy thoughts your way...let us know how the little girl does! And if at all possible, post pics of the sick horse so we can get a look at her.

 

[alexa11]

there is no heater in the qt tank, and I will add an airstone in there. I do not use a protein skimmer in the main tank; i use 2 filters and a koralia 1 for movement. I have put a smaller heater (from a 10 gal tank) in there on the lowest setting, so it doesn't drop too low. The heater that was in there was for a 20 and had been set at the lowest setting. The horse's breathing doesnt seem laboured to me, which is why this whole thing is wierd. But she is not moving at all, just lying there now breathing on the plant. I suppose only time will tell. I'll try to snap a pic either tonight or tomorrow fingers crossed. thanks for the help!

 

[alexa11]

well, i went to put the air stone in, and she had passed on. I will take some pictures, as she has just died, to see if you notice anything that I don't. : (

 

[teresaq]

I am really sorry about your loss. I have a question though. Are you sure your horses are getting enough to eat, and that your marron clown is not picking at them. They are a level 4 on the compatabilty chart, and are not good tank mates for horses. They will pick at and out eat your horses. https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=315559
I hope your other horse is doing well.
TeresaQ

 

[novahobbies]

Alexa,
I'm so sorry the seahorse passed away.......I know you tried your best to keep her comfortable at the last, and I doubt she was hurting if she passed the way you described. But, just to clarify.....I thought the Maroon clown was in ANOTHER tank, not your horse tank......right?

 

[alexa11]

yes I have been feeding the horses in a breeding net so that the clown doesn't eat their food and they have been very healthy eaters. there are also pods in the tank. The one that passed on was very active yesterday and ate quite a bit. the clown hasn't bothered them at all that I have seen anyway. I watched him for hours when i first put them in, prepared to trade him in at the lfs. they have been in with him for 3 or more weeks now without any issues. The fins of the horse were fine as well; no cuts or anything. I had this clown with other fish in the past and he had never shown any agression. What I am suspecting is the oxygen level. The horses like to hang out in the chaeto algae and on the side of the tank among lots of rock, where there isnt really any flow, and so I am guessing there is not much O2 in that area either. I just put an airstone in the back to help with that theory. Otherwise, i dont know if maybe i should put the other horse in the QT for now or leave her where she is. I will leave her in the main tank unless anyone suggests otherwise. Also the temp was a bit higher than what it should have been, so i put a smaller heater in there a little while ago.

 

[alexa11]

I figured he is like a percula or something agression wise. he is a pig but not territorial for a maroon. hense the breeding net feeding situation.

 

[alexa11]

should I put her in the QT?

 

[novahobbies]

The airstone in the tank is a good temporary fix, but it will cause problems down the road if used as a permanent thing. With the bubbler in the tank, you will get a slightly increased O2 level, but you will also get the possibility of an algae bloom, and an increase in the "scum" on the top of the water. This is why airstone-driven protein skimmers are contained.....the bubbles attract Dissolved Organic Compounds, but in a skimmer they are trapped in the skimmate cup. I'm glad you have some flow in the tank....perhaps you can rearrange your powerhead to increase flow down where you suspect a dead spot is. I highly recommend you get a protein skimmer in the tank, however. Even a simple one like a rio nano skimmer would do the job of increasing your flow and increasing oxygenation.
Again, I'm just going on your description of the horse's condition. It's hard to tell without actually "being there," I know. That being said, I think it may be best for the seahorse to stay in the main tank, unless you see specific problems with the horse. His natural environment will help him be more comfortable.
One other thing: Be VERY, VERY careful with that maroon. As someone once said, at the end of the day clownfish are just damsels in fancy coats. She may not be agressive now, but maroon clowns are notorious for getting grouchier as they age. I have one in my 110g reef, and despite the tank size, she still manages to rule the roost.

 

[alexa11]

Yes i will continue to watch her carefully and move her if she becomes grouchy. She is about a year old now. I had a reo nano skimmer, but i couldnt get it to work right, and then a power outage destroyed it. However, i do have a plastic skimmer (a cheap one) that can go in the tank. The problem with it was that it would fill the cup within the space of an hour, even when adjusting the airflow. I rigged it up to a coke bottle to collect the water from the cup, but i was just afraid i would forget it was on and have a huge spill. AHHH i have it! one of my filters is a 'wet dry' filter if i pull a tab up it injects air into the water. I have that thing pushed down now. I'll pull it up.

 

[reefnutpa]

Once again.... it is not the fact a clownfish may physically bully a seahorse. It's the fact their eradic swimming patterns can stress the seahorse. Just by being in the tank and seeing the eradically fast swimming/wiggling fish. That is enough of a stressor. That coupled with very high/unsuitable tank temperatures could cause major issues.
As was mentioned, an oxygen issue would usually cause rapid/heavy breathing. You indicate there was no noticeable heavy breathing, so IMO oxygen deprevation was not the issue. Since you mention the seahorse would not use it's tail, my guess would be the beginning of a tail infection/Vibrio infection brought on by the high tank temperatures. Since those types of pathogens reproduce so rapidly at high temperatures, it could overcome an already semi-stressed seahorse very quickly.
Tom

 

[dingus890]

So sorry for your loss.

In your profile you say you also have a purple lobster.Is this in the horse tank also??I agree with Tom,just the presence of the maroon clown being there can stress horses.Also he may bully them when the lights go out.You never know.
I would slowly over the course of a week turn you heater down until the temp gets to about 75.
Do you have a powerhead in the tank to help with circulation also?Seahorse need a good flow so bacteria does not build up.

 

[alexa11]

temp has been steady at 76 for the past few days. Zoot seems to be doing well thus far! I am planning to set up a 46 bowfront in the next few months hopefully (it is sitting empty at the moment) and I plan to turn it into a ricordea/mushroom/zoa/paly planted seahorse and pipefish tank. I also have plans to put a brine shrimp hatchery in the sump so the baby brine get sucked up into the tank on a sort of regular basis. It depends on the boyfriend though...when i can convince him to let me set the tank up (it's in his basement)

 

[keebler]

I have a friend named Alexa. Her favorite number...11. Her favorite animal...seahorses. I just thought this was a ridiculous coincidence and had to tell you. I thought you were her at first until I looked at your profile.