New hobbyist- need help with pH

[thankgod4fish]

First and foremost, I want to say I'm probably the most excited guy around right now. I've been dying to set up a saltwater aquarium and finally, it's up. I've probably been reading the threads here for 3 or 4 months prior to actually setting up and registering. Wish me luck!!
Anyway, on to the issue at hand.... I have a 55 gallon aquarium with an AquaClear 300 that I just set up a week ago today. I intend on cycling with a couple of hardy fish but haven't been able to add them yet because I can't get the pH to 8.3. It's been in the neighborhood of 7.8 for a week straight. I have crushed coral as well as a few pieces of dead coral, from which I've read, are both natural pH buffers, but it doesn't seem like they're helping much. My LFS sold me SeaChem 8.3 pH Buffer which I've been using religiously since I set up (as per instructions, 1 level teaspoon per 20 gallons of water, pre-dissolved in 1 cup of freshwater) and the pH goes up momentarily, but drops back down to 7.8 within 24 hours.
I've read that I should aerate the water and conduct a partial water change but I don't want to plug in my airstone yet because I haven't picked up a hood fixture yet ( I know, I know but I'm getting one free from my brother-in-law and he can't make it down 'till this weekend... better free than cheap no?! =). I plugged the airstone in briefly, but without the hood the water sprays out and salt accumulates all over the place.
Once I get the hood, I'm more than willing to do these things, but I wanted to see if anyone can suggest anything else to try.
Thanks again, in advance, for anyone that replies.
I've got a fish tank!! =)

 

[sterling]

I think you'll get alot of more knowledgeable people jump in here with some help for you, and BTW, welcome to SWF.com
First thing, what are your other water readings, i.e. calcium and alkalinity specifically. PH, alk and calcium are all interreactive. One plays upon the other.
What type of water do you use for water changes, i.e. R/O, tap, bottled etc.
Are you planning on a FO tank?
And is the 300 your only source of filtration??
Answer these questions and you'll definitely get some good advice.

 

[thankgod4fish]

Thanks for responding.
For now the 300 is only filtration. I WAS going to put in an undergravel, but decided not to. To help with the bacteria colonies, though, I made a pouch of "living space" with a media bag and lava rock and put it inside the 300 along with the other media. I've been reading a lot about protein skimmers, which are sounding more and more enticing by the comment...
The tank will be fish only, and right now, I use conditioned tap.
As far as alkalinity, specifically, I can't say I even have the test for that, truthfully. My LFS sold me a kit with pH, ammonium, trite and trates tests, and say that should do it. Is there something else I should get?

 

[sterling]

Yes, definitely get tests for calcium and alkalinity. A protein skimmer would be a good thing, but not an absolute neccessity (sp) with a FO, but highly recommended, especially depending on the number of fish you intend on putting in the 55 gallon.
What type of substrate do you have?
Also what is the salinity level in your tank?

 

[thankgod4fish]

Right now, substrate is crushed coral and salinity a steady 1.023 for a few days now.

 

[mykgillespie]

I agree with Sterling on everthing except the skimmer part. Definitely use a skimmer. Maintain the water quality from the begining and you'll avoid headaches later. If it fits you're budget try a Remora Pro from AquaC, probably one of the best Hang-on skimmers avaialble. If not you can probably get a CPR bak Pak for under$150.00. As far as pH is concerned, you will need to buffer the pH. Don't rely on your crushed coral or coral skeletons to buffer your pH in a saltwater tank as it will take an acid to break these down enough to buffer. And if your salttank is acidic, then your fish have probably already died. Not a sufficient method. There are a number of ways to accomplish your goal, I prefer to test my alkalinity by way of Carbonate Hardness (KH). I like to use KH because the test is a titration test and is very easy to do with no colors to match. I also use Kent KH builder to bring up the KH in my tanks. In a Saltwater Tank with good water quality a natural sea water KH of 8-10 degrees, your pH should easily sit at 8.3 to 8.4. If you need to raise KH levels above 8-10 to maintain an optimum pH then there is something else wrong with the water that is pulling the pH down such as heavy organics and a series of small partial water changes is in order. I'm also curious as to what brand of synthetic sea salt you used as most brands will mix to a good pH and you had mentioned that your tank is newly set up. Good idea not to use the under-gravel, it traps debris where it can rot. Same for your AquaClear if you use the Foam Block. If you choose to use the block be sure to rinse it out thoroughly every day otherwise the trapped debris will rot and pollute the aquarium. Best to leave out the foam and let a good quality protein skimmer pull out the organics. As you can see with a protein skimmer in operation, it physically removes organics from the system whereas a Mechanical filter just traps it out of view where it can still pollute the water. And lastly you might consider some Live Rock for your system...Many Benefits. I hope this is helpful to you and enjoy your new hobby you seem very motivated in this hobby, you picked a good one!
Later,
Myk.

 

[thankgod4fish]

Thanks for the tips!! I used Coralife salt mix, and actually, for the first time since I set up, the pH remained somewhat elevated since I last added buffer. I haven't added buffer today and it's aroud 8.0. So that's up from yesterday without any changes. I've already decided to add live rock, but it'll be gradual.
Speaking of which, how long can LR sit in it's shipping packaging before causing any harm? I'd like to order from swf.com but if I do, no one is ever home to receive my shipments and the package would sit for at LEAST 5 hours before I can get to it, if I have it delivered elsewhere.... any advice?

 

[mykgillespie]

Coralife is a good quality brand and I'm still surprised that you're having pH problems. What type of test kit are you using to check your pH, is it an old kit by any chance? Would it be possible for you to take a sample to a local fish store or maybe even a few different stores to compare their results to what your test kit is reading? And also, make sure to get an alkalinity or KH test done as well. As far as LR is concerned, I guess that if you're going to have it shipped anyway a few extra hours should be okay, but indoors is best so you may want to try to set something up with someone you know will be home or if you have a Postal Center USA or similar packing store you may be able to work somthing out with them. I actually have a mailbox at a Postal Center USA, it's not like a P.O. Box in that you can receive packages there and they will accept them there for you. In my opinion though LR from a good local fish store is best for good quality rock, maybe place a large order through the mail to use as base rock then you can buy a few large pieces locally. Just an idea. Keep me posted on your pH situation, I'm curious about it. Good luck!
Myk.

 

[thankgod4fish]

Thanks again Myk for the tips!! As it turns out, I tested the water from the sink I take the tap from to make my sw mix and it tested very low for pH. So I think that's the problem. As low as it was, I can see why it's taking over a week to get it up there. Aside from the fact that the only aeration the water is getting (until I get my hood tomorrow) is from the power filter.... well, it's not direct aeration, but the circulation provides some O2. Once I get the hood set up, I'll aerate the water with an airstone which I think should help. Either way, I'll definitely pick up a KH test this weekend so I can keep on it. Still though, the kit I've been using is brand new. I believe it's only 2 weeks old. It's one of those cheesy match-the-color tests. I wanna try and get something a little more clear cut cuz I swear, sometimes I get results in the tube that resemble at least 2 or 3 colors on the chart!!
Thanks for the info on the LR. I think I'd have to agree. Going to the LFS will let me pick out really nice looking pieces, so I can set up my base number of rocks with online purchase and pick up a few additional pounds of nice, hand picked pieces, at the lfs for the front of the display.
Hey, what's the deal with cycling with cocktail shrimp anyway? I read about it all over the place here, but I'm not sure exactly, what has to be done. How many shrimps s/b used on a 55? Are they to be taken out, or left in the water to decompose completley? Are they any advantages to this method that using a couple hardy fish lacks? Is the cycle faster? I'm curious, because I'm anxious to start stocking, but I know better than to rush it (I've lost money on FW with that kind of impatience.... I'm not ready to lose SW-type money over the same thing now=).

 

[xxvietxjustinxx]

Get a ro/di unit if you can.

 

[mykgillespie]

Sounds good with your find on the pH, I agree though RO/DI or at the very least distilled from the store would be a good idea. The thing about pH is that it's all about balance. You can add things to any tank to raise or lower pH. But the more that you add to a given body of water to cahnge a given pH, the more unstable the balance will become and it's best to remove from that body of water. For example, if your tap water is acidic and you add a sea salt chemically designed to be saturated in pure water to mix to a certain pH than the end result will not only be an incorrect pH but an unstable pH as well and the more you add to compensate the more unstable it will become. So I think that a more pure water source will make things easier on you.
Ditch those dip-in-strips, those things will react with humidity in the air and are usually useless as soon as you open the container. What are you going to use for a bio-filter, this must be in place before trying to start the cycle. I'd recommend getting as much LR as you can to start the cycle. I guess you could use cocktail shrimp, but ammonia is ammonia and that all you need to start the cycle (well, and some bacteria!) so in my opinion a couple of clowns and some cured rock is a good way to cycle or even some un-cured rock and no fish will provide some ammonia to get the cycle done. If you get a skimmer it may speed the process not to run it while cycling. Anyhow, I don't think there's any real difference, you could probably throw a dead rat into the tank to supply it with ammonia, clean up might be a little nasty though along with the smell! But sounds like you've got it, patience is key so good lick to you, also, I almost forgot, be careful with airstones in saltwater it's almost always messy.
Later,
Myk.

 

[birdy]

I just wanted to add, if you are going to order live rock online, you are almost assured of some die off, which will cause an ammonia spike, I would order the rock and start your cycle then. I think your Ph problem may be your test kit, I use RO/DI water the base Ph with it is very low, but the salt mixes almost always raise the Ph to 8.3. Also do not use airstones in a salt aquarium there is no benefit and it will cause your water to evaporate quickly and you will have salt spray everywhere, instead get a couple of powerheads to move the water in the tank. You may have a filtration problem unless you get about 1 lb of rock per gallon of water. I would also recommend a DSB instead of CC, it will keep your nitrates lower, but cc can be done, it is of course your choice.

 

[broomer5]

From what I've read - Coralife synthetic sea salt is very different in how it's formulated, compared to Instant Ocean ( and natural seawater ).
It's not surprising to me to hear of a low pH value using this brand of saltmix.
Here's an interesting article/research paper you may find interesting. It's one of the best studies I've ever seen, regarding several popular saltmixes.
You may want to read the section/charts that detail the buffering components in these various salts.
Specifically - the CO3 carbonates, and HCO3 bicarbonate levels, and the pH.
Two charts included;
One shows values prior to aeration/equalibrium with CO2 gas.
One shows values "after" aeration and reaching CO2 equalibrium.
This is a KEY point to understand, and one of the trickiests as well.
But CO2 gas, specifically CO2 gas in solution is the one variable that will drive the buffering capacity/alkalinity and pH.
It can drive it either way - up or down.
When it does - calcium and other compounds will begin to shift too.
Hope you find this article worthwhile.
Craig Bingman

 

[dindi]

I use distilled water, after checking RO/DI it was cleaner no organics or heavy metals,(we all have our preferences) I also use Instant Ocean, it's a great way to get going. But I agree with Myk, always test your KH! It is very important, heck all the water componets are very important in this hobby. I also use SeaChem to buffer my water...so far all good except phophates, thats another story and problem Good luck and welcome to SWF.com

 

[thankgod4fish]

Thanks all, for the info.
Update:
Went to LFS to have sample water tested. The rep said my pH is actually 8.1 (according to his tests) vs. the 7.8 - 7.9 I was coming up with, so he wants me to bring my test kit back to verify the results (this is the same kit he sold me).
On another note, he said the water is way too hard... about twice as hard as it should be. He thinks I may have overdone it on the Seachem buffer, so he wants me to bring along a sample of my tap. I feel he should've told me about KH tests from the get go. Since he and I are both in Jersey, and our water is so terrible, he probably goes through the same thing. I'll keep you guys posted. Ugh!! so anxious!!
Oh! He also said he's bringing in an RO/DI unit in and could sell me water once he does. What does that usually go for? I used to work at a pet store (in the reptile section, so that's why I'm sucha noob) and at the time, the owner sold RO water at upwards of 2 bucks/ gallon.
Anyway, how can powerheads be installed without an UG filter?
I'm kinda undecided on the airstone. I'm not really sure I like the way it looks, but was under the impression it should help a bit with the pH.
As far as the sand, my LFS dealer said depending on the results of the tap test, I may just have to start over with the water (says changing even 50% may not change the harness by 50%) and if I do, I think I want to switch to sand anyway. If I can keep the existing water, I may stay w/the CC.

 

[thankgod4fish]

is it advisable to purchase the full amount of required LR and put it all in at once? I mean, I have a 55 so at 1 - 1.5 lb / gal, I should need... uh.... 55 - 82.5 lbs of LR. Will it be unhealthy to add the full amount all at once??

 

[pmauro]

I advise you be careful about using LAVA ROCK in your tank it can contain heavy metals and I was advised by members of this board not to use them due to the potential dangers with heavy metals. just my .02 worth

 

[javatech]

http://www.simplifiedreefkeeping.com/faq/faq.htm

 

[mykgillespie]

The average price in my area for RO/DI is 50 cents a gallon. $2.00 a gallon seems pretty steep to me! Any way, probably best to purchase your own and save money all around. Powerheads are easy, just mount them with whats provided to your preference as most will come with a suction cup mount and a clip mount. Most will have a venturi and hose, don't use this as your salt spray likely would be worst than with an airstone. Most will also have some sort of a strainer. The only ones that I haven't seen with them that could pose a problem are the larger sized AquaClear powerheads, but you can use the heater guard for the tronic heaters to screen these powerheads as they seem to fit almost perfectly.

 

[thankgod4fish]

if I were to by my on RO/DI unit, what would be the ideal one? I've seen units from 89.99 to almost a thousand dollars! Also I see that they come in multiple "stages" and I wouldn't even begin to know what to look for here. What is your area myk? you in jersey? if so, tell me where you buy your water!
Also can anybody recommend a good name-brand KH test?