New Royal Gramma...is he ok?

[dpeter51]

I found this thread that sounds like similar behavior (https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/304808/royal-gramma-wuss), but my circumstances are different and I wanted to see what you think I should do.
I bought a fiji devil damsel and a royal gramma Sunday and put them in my new 10-gallon quarantine tank. There's a big cured live rock and some big shells so lots of hiding spots, but maybe not enough swimming room? not sure...
The gramma hides in a hole in the back of the rock and I can't see him unless I put some food in. He does come out, and likes to eat, but I notice his tail fin looks a bit torn and I know it was in perfect shape when I bought him. He also was just hanging out in the open the whole time at the LFS.
He's also displaying a weird behavior--he keeps diving at the substrate or at objects and turning at the last second, like he's trying to scratch an itch on the left side of his head or something, and when he hovers in one spot, it's a bit nose-down and tilted, not straight like they normally do. See video here of the diving behavior (the damsel swimming into the view is a coincidence I think, he does this even when the damsel is not near him): http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/e...t=CIMG6251.flv
I haven't seen the damsel act aggressive toward him--actually it's the other way around, he chases off the damsel if it swims by his "cave", but maybe the tank is too small or something is stressing him?
The water is recycled from my DT but I only made it about 2 weeks ago. pH is a little low (about 8.0), and ammonia is about 0.25, nitrite 0 and nitrate 15-20. It also occurred to me that I might have acclimated them too fast, but it's been a couple days now and they're still alive so I'm not sure if that would be a cause.
Any ideas? Does the gramma need more room (should I move him to my DT early) or does he need some privacy (move out the damsel)? Any suggestions on water chemistry, or should I just wait/monitor?

 

[anthropo]

k it sounds like you have 2 problems. one is that the royal gramma is probably being picked on by the blue devil which is why the tail is torn. on the other side the royal gramma will be a bit timid anyways but the blue devil isn't helping. the second problem is that it sounds like he might have ich which is a parasite. this is why he is actually itching himself on the decor of the tank

 

[keith burn]

The q/a tank is not a q/a tank it is a small d/t tank.
A q/a tank will have no l/r or sand in it.
If you have ich now the sand and the L/R will have it.
You can not use the L/R or the sand in a tank with fish for 6 weeks.
If you use meds in the tank not at all must thow it out.
Q/A tanks have no l/r or sand just pvc for the fish to use.
Good luck

(no ich i hope)
this will help
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127007/faqs-fish-diseases-treatments-quarantine-health-info

 

[dpeter51]

Ooh that sux. Well, not a problem leaving the LR in there for a few weeks. I'm not treating with chemicals, from what I read they sound like more trouble than they're worth (I'd rather lose a $20 fish than pollute the tank and all its contents forever).
Like I said I haven't seen any aggression from the damsel toward the gramma, but I'm not there 24/7 of course.
So if I move the damsel into my DT tank is it likely that she would carry the parasite in with her? She seems very healthy/happy and I have heard they're resistant to ich but can they still carry it?
Maybe I should set up a 2nd QT and move the damsel there to give the gramma some peace? Unfortunately I'd have to sacrifice another piece of live rock from my DT to do that as I don't have anything else that is ready to handle a bioload.
I guess a 3rd option is to take the damsel back to the store but I don't want to do that--I really like the coloring and not sure how often they get this type in.

 

[keith burn]

IMO set up 2nd q/a tank with just pvc and use it after the cycle as a q/a tank and keep the one now like it is intell you know no ick is in it.

 

[anthropo]

Originally Posted by dpeter51
http:///forum/post/2514463
Ooh that sux. Well, not a problem leaving the LR in there for a few weeks. I'm not treating with chemicals, from what I read they sound like more trouble than they're worth (I'd rather lose a $20 fish than pollute the tank and all its contents forever).
Like I said I haven't seen any aggression from the damsel toward the gramma, but I'm not there 24/7 of course.
So if I move the damsel into my DT tank is it likely that she would carry the parasite in with her? She seems very healthy/happy and I have heard they're resistant to ich but can they still carry it?
Maybe I should set up a 2nd QT and move the damsel there to give the gramma some peace? Unfortunately I'd have to sacrifice another piece of live rock from my DT to do that as I don't have anything else that is ready to handle a bioload.
I guess a 3rd option is to take the damsel back to the store but I don't want to do that--I really like the coloring and not sure how often they get this type in.
if the damsel isn't showing any signs of ich then i'd say it'd be ok to drop it into your main tank, but i think the damsel is a bad decision all together. many people buy these fish cause they're cheap and most pretty but then they harass other fish once they get comfortable.

 

[prk543]

disregard the last, just because it isn't showing signs now doesn't indicate that it doesn't have ich. The fact is that you have the damsel in a tank with a fish that may have ich. You will probably need to hypo both in the second QT, and the first QT tank they were in should remain fishless for 4 weeks.
If you put the damsel in now, you have a high risk of introducing ich into your DT.

 

[dpeter51]

Gotcha--thanks everyone for the information. I am thinking of putting some kind of divider into the "mini-DT" to keep the damsel away from the gramma. I'll have to figure out how to get good water flow between the two sides; all I have in there is a little power filter. Maybe I could do a "tank within a tank" using a clear rubbermaid box that overflows into the rest of the tank. That way I can avoid buying more equipment and waiting for it to cycle.
I will also research hypo and other treatment methods a little more and figure out the best path.
Thanks again.

 

[prk543]

Why not some egg crate (lighting ballast) that you can pick up from Lowes or home depot, water can move through, and should keep the fish from swimming through

 

[dpeter51]

Oh yeah, great idea! I was going to get some to cover my DT anyway!

If I can't find anything with a fine mesh I guess it's ok since I don't care if the gramma goes onto the damsel's side, I just need to contain the damsel.

 

[anthropo]

Originally Posted by Prk543
http:///forum/post/2515193
disregard the last, just because it isn't showing signs now doesn't indicate that it doesn't have ich. The fact is that you have the damsel in a tank with a fish that may have ich. You will probably need to hypo both in the second QT, and the first QT tank they were in should remain fishless for 4 weeks.
If you put the damsel in now, you have a high risk of introducing ich into your DT.
actually you're wrong. the only way for a fish to transfer ich is if it actually has it. ich is a free floating parasite in the water column that when it finds a host who's stress coat is thin attaches itself to that fish. when that fish is introduced to another system the ich that is already on it will spawn in that tank sending free floating offspring into the water column. the only way a fish's stress coat thins is if it's stressed. if this fish isn't showing any signs of ich then it's probably not stressed enough for ich to attach itself. this is why some fish are more prone to ich because they are more easily stressed. damsels being one of the hardiest fish hardly ever get stressed unless you shove them into a small tank with a lot of other damsels such as *****. i would still quarantine it for at least a week but should not have a problem going into the main display tank.

 

[anthropo]

also, i forgot to mention that even though people quarantine their fish doesn't mean you don't have ich in your main tank. i would say that 99.99999999% of all tanks have ich free floating in their tank but the fish are so healthy and well taken care of that their stress coats are thick enough for ich to not attach itself unless someone had a UV sterilizer which i think is a waste of money by the way.

 

[dpeter51]

I got the egg crate and separated them; as I was putting it in and moving stuff around, I saw that the gramma is really bad now. It doesn't have white spots, but it wouldn't swim straight and it just shoves itself into the tightest space it can and stays there for hours. It is still alive this morning and i hope it pulls through, but I'm not very optimistic at this point. It also looked like it might have a kind of fuzziness all over its side but I couldn't tell for sure. It wasn't really white. Damsel still seems fine.

 

[anthropo]

Originally Posted by dpeter51
http:///forum/post/2515983
I got the egg crate and separated them; as I was putting it in and moving stuff around, I saw that the gramma is really bad now. It doesn't have white spots, but it wouldn't swim straight and it just shoves itself into the tightest space it can and stays there for hours. It is still alive this morning and i hope it pulls through, but I'm not very optimistic at this point. It also looked like it might have a kind of fuzziness all over its side but I couldn't tell for sure. It wasn't really white. Damsel still seems fine.
ok...i probably wouldn't add the damsel now...it seems like it's a possibility that the gramma has either a bacterial or fungal infection. i'm leaning more towards fungal. these you will have to medicate for. i'm not a fan of using medication if you don't have to but if it is "fuzzy" you will have to. the only thing i can say is i would use either melafix or pimafix which you can buy both at *****. they are all natural medications. they smell but work. they also have pictures of what they cure on the back which will allow you to decide which you will need. also these medications don't harm inverts or live rock. good luck

 

[dpeter51]

Thanks anthropo. The gramma didn't make it, I guess you could say he kicked the water change bucket. Damsel still looks happy and I will monitor her for a few weeks before adding her to the main tank.
I'll be more careful where I buy my next gramma--I got both of these guys from an LFS with a "doesn't care" attitude because of the price, but if I'm willing to pay more I can get one from a really good place a few miles down the road.

 

[anthropo]

sorry to hear about the loss...price isn't everything but just make sure the store takes care of the fish. good luck on the next one.

 

[dpeter51]

I'm keeping the damsel in the QT for 2-3 more weeks to be sure, but I bought a GOOD gramma ($40, ouch) from the store I trust. Day 2 and he's doing great, he gets along with my two ocellaris just fine and doesn't hide all the time like the other one did. I put him straight in with the clowns because this LFS quarantines their fish for 2 weeks before they sell them and all their display tanks are connected, so all of these fish were in the same water before I bought them.
Lookin good, huh?

 

[anthropo]

damn man 40 bucks that's a lot

 

[robn70]

Oouch, and I thought $22.00 was high at my lfs. I ordered my from here on special a couple of weeks ago for $9.99.