New to the hobby

[wenisman]

Alright so iv been up for like 2 hours reading post here rom other people. I just bought a 37 gallon set up with a SL-5 wet/dry filter from the local fish store. The people there were very freindly and gave me the gest of what to do. After reading all these post it sounds like tap water is a bad, bad idea. the info i got from them was to buy a 40 gallon tub from walmart and mix up my saltwater and let it sit out for 24 hours, add it to my tank add the live sand and plug in the filter system. they told me to come back in a couple of days and they would get me some dansels to help cycle the tank and in about a month it should be good for fish. im woundering if i just wasted all that salt and live sand using tap water or did it distill enough from sitting out for that amount of time. sorry for the long post but money is not somthing i have a lot of being in college and all and wasting all that could be bad news. thanks for any replies.

 

[murph]

No you have not wasted the salt but starting with the tap water was not the best.
I assume the LFS sold you some kind of water conditioner to neutralize the chemicals in your tap water. My hope is this product is Amquel+ but others will work.
Now to the cycling. First off you will get a lot of grief around here if you cycle with damsels but this is how it was done for years. I have cycled probably 50 to 100 freshwater tanks with livestock and to date 3 SW tanks with live stock and have never lost a fish.
Here is what you will need.
One bottle of Amquel+
Ammonia test kit
Ammonia sensor
Nitrite test kit
So at this point I am going to assume the tank is full of water and substrate is in place (hopefully some kind of sand) and filters and circulation is running. If there is any carbon in your filter system remove it for now. Double check your SG and shoot for 1.025 if the tank is to have inverts down the road.
Dose the tank with Amquel per bottle instructions. It is fine to use a little more for comfort as it is virtually impossible to over dose with this product.
Add your cured live rock. If you can afford 40 or 50 pounds great but if not thats OK too. Just add as much up to 50 pounds as you can afford.
Now attach the ammonia sensor to the inside of the tank with the suction cup. If you have dosed properly with the amquel it should give you a reading in the safe zone. This device is going to indicate the free ammonia that is present in your tank. Free ammonia is the fish killer so keep an eye on this device and if at any point during your cycle it rises dose another cap full of amquel.
Now run a test with your ammonia test kit. This is going to tell you the total ammonias present in your tank. Free ammonia and ionic ammonia. Use an Aquarium Pharmaceutical ammonia kit for this as the amquel can interfere with the reading when using others. You will probably get a reading somewhere around .25. This is OK as long as the ammonia sensor stays within the safe range.
After this is done you can add two damsels and carefully monitor the situation. During the cycle change out 2 to 5 gallons every other day with newly mixed RO/DI water to work the tap water out of your system. By day 15 you should see zero ammonia when testing and around day 25 zero ammonia and nitrite and your tank is cycled. Discontinue use of amquel at this point.
Or skip all of that and let the tank cycle without livestock. To do that just ghost feed the tank with a pinch of flake food every couple of days to provide an ammonia source. Do the water changes as described above to work the tap water out of your tank and in a month you should be good to go.
The benefits to that is you wont have to monitor the tank so closely and you wont have to remove the damsels when you start to add your intended live stock and I guarantee you, you are going to want to get red of those damsels. :joy:
The benefits to cycling with the damsels is that at the end of the cycle the tank will be more stable and the addition of your intended livestock will not have as much a chance of changing your water parameters.
Good luck and welcome to the hobby.

 

[merredeth]

Wenisman:
While cycling with Damsels was the norm years ago, the norm is now to get a piece of shrimp from the grocery store (ask the meat counter to sell you one) and put that in the tank instead and let it dissolve into nothing. Cycling tanks with damsels permanently injures the respiratory system of the fish - if they manage to live through it.
From what people have stated on this forum, the cycle kicks in a little faster than feeding the tank with food, and you are definitely not harming any fish.
All the other advice seems to be accurate, but I would add that cycling a tank takes time and patience.
While the tank is cycling, you can start researching fish and figuring out what is compatable. Personally, I prefer the chart I found by putting in the string "saltwater fish compatibility chart" and refer to the first link it gives you. Then research each of your selections by using saltwaterfish.com and other resources before you actually go out and buy any fish for your aquarium. Never just trust your LFS until you have verified repeatedly everything they say. If you build a good relationship with an owner or an employee and everything checks out repeatedly then you can be a little relaxed on the information they provide. In my opinion, they need to prove to me that I am spending my money wisely. They want to sell products and fish which is what keeps the doors open.
I printed out a copy of this chart long ago and have it in a file in the file cabinet to refer to every now and then. I look at what I already have and when I want to select something else I research each fish before I buy.
As for your tap water you mixed up with salt, I have not used any products like Amquel + but I would make sure I completely cycle the tank and do plenty of water changes before introducing any fish as you run the potential for two problems. The first problem you are going to encounter is diatom issues. Your substrate is going to turn brown quickly. No need to get alarmed as this will clear up but I wouldn't put any fish into it until you have completely cycled the tank and changed out all the water with water changes of 10 - 15% each week until you have been through several water changes - basically all the water in your tank. Patience is the key here. Replace the salt water with RO or RO/DI water each time. Make sure you aerate the water and salt for 24 hours to dissolve the salt crystals and to balance the O2 and PH.
You can buy RO water at Walmart in case you haven't read a thread about the Culligan RO units in Walmart. A gallon of RO water runs about .33¢ - .40¢ at most stores. I purchased five gallon water bottles from water purification place locally here and fill them up at Walmart. Culligan's sells three gallon bottles to fill with, but at $7.98 each that is probably going to hit you hard financially since you are on a budget. Going to the competitor and buying water bottles in my opinion is perfectly fine because I don't know any Walmart that won't take your money for the Culligan water if you are using another company's bottle. Although, keep in mind three gallon bottles are a lot lighter (not to mention also have built in handles) then the five gallon bottles that I'm lugging up onto my catwalk in my house or into my office with a two wheel cart. I use the five gallon bottles as each of my personal tanks and the one in my office run well over 100 gallons or more.
When adding the water to the tank, there is nothing to it if there is no fish in the tank. However, when I do water changes since fish have been in my tank for what seems like forever, I drip the water in by using nothing more than airline tubing. While this may be overkill for some people, I prefer doing salt additions and water top offs in this fashion as the tank doesn't have temperature fluctuations (less stress on your fish) and I'm also able to control the salinity in my water more accurately.
Speaking of salinity, do not use a swing arm hydrometer. I know you are on a limited budget but the best thing you can do for yourself and your tank is to invest in a refractometer. They aree much more precise and can be purchased anywhere from $49.99 or less here on this website or on the great auction website. Some fish and inverts are very sensitive to salinity changes and keeping an eye on the salinity is going to give you a better success rate in keeping fish and inverts.
Continued in the next post...

 

[merredeth]

Continuation of prior post...
While starting each tank, I had a three ring binder with a form I designed on Word so I could easily keep track of my water parameters, fish mistakes and triumphs. A new form for each time I tested the water or when I added fish was a great help in understanding the issues of getting a successful & established tank.
The form included the following information:
Date & Time
Nitrite Level
Nitrate Level
PH
Calcium
Alkalinity
Salinity
Temperature
Listing of each fish in the tank with space for me to write down any notable changes or observations.
Separate notes included acclimation procedures when introducing a new tankmate.
When introducing a new tankmate, parameters were recorded first a long with the acclimation procedure and how long it took to complete. I prefer drip acclimation so acclimation can run hours for me. Water parameters were done 12 hours after the tankmate was introduced as well as 24, 48, 60, 78 and finally 96 hours, which basically means I monitored my tanks for four days closely after introduction. Never, I repeat, NEVER add more than one fish per week because your bioload is affected. Only after repitition, recording the parameters and observations was I able to really understand the needs and requirements of my first tank through looking at my own evidence in my own handwriting.
After about two months, I was able to start to understand things so much easier. I kept up the journal for each tank for several months. Now that I feel like I have a solid handle on the issues I don't records near as much as I used to but every now and then I do when I add something new to the tank or when I change products so I can get a visual on how the product or fish affects the entire tank. Since I do water changes weekly and really enjoy the time spent working with the tanks, I look forard to the "chores," which is how I ended up with multiple tank syndrome.
So here is my advice when starting your tank.
Welcome to the hobby. Each and every day I learn something new by reading the boards and lurking. I look forward to hearing about the progress of your tank.
Whew! I feel like I wrote "War & Peace" here since I never wrote over 5000 charaters before and had to split a post up.

I hope you made it to the end of this note without falling asleep.
Denise M.

 

[murph]

Well I have been over this debate around here before so I will keep it short.
When done properly there is no damage done to damsels when they are used to cycle a tank. Like other things in this hobby the notion that cycling with fish will kill or maim them no matter what is simply not true but has been repeated enough that it has become excepted as fact.
Its a simple matter of chemistry. There are two forms of ammonia that will exist in your tank. Free ammonia and ionic ammonia.
Free ammonia, even at low levels will kill fish in short order. Ionic ammonia however is harmless.
If this where not true it would be virtually impossible to ship fish as the containers they were in would quickly become polluted with there own waste and kill them within hours. Amquel or a similar product is added to every container or bag that is shipped with livestock in this hobby or the fish would not arrive alive.
When you cycle a tank like I described you are basically doing the same thing as when fish are shipped until the bacteria in your tank has multiplied enough to convert all new ammonia both free and ionic as fast as it is produced.
There is a laundry list of other reasons you may be better off not cycling a tank with livestock, but when done properly and carefully monitored you are not torturing or permanently damaging the fish.

 

[merredeth]

Okay, Murph I stand corrected but I do have a few questions for you since you brought up my error.
This is not a debate, just someone who wants to learn something new today so here goes...
1. Can you elaborate on the ionic ammonia and free ammonia. I'd like to learn more about that and I am certainly the farthest thing from a chemist that you will find.
2. If one was to risk cycling with damsels what is the proper way to do it to prevent harming the fish?
Inquiring minds wanna know.
Thanks,
Denise M.

 

[phixer]

Isnt it more harmful to the shrimp? The damsels will be fine, I use them all the time and have not killed one yet and at 5 bucks a piece they are almost cheaper than shrimp anyhow. :scared:

 

[merredeth]

Originally Posted by Phixer
Isnt it more harmful to the shrimp? The damsels will be fine, I use them all the time and have not killed one yet and at 5 bucks a piece they are almost cheaper than shrimp anyhow. :scared:
How can I kill what is already dead? I'm referring to shrimp you buy from the meat counter to cook, not live shrimp from an LFS. The degrading it does in the tank will speed the cycling tank process according to the information that many have posted.
You're talking less than $1.00 for some shrimp from the meat counter.

Denise M.

 

[wax32]

wenisman....

¡Hola! Welcome to the boards!

 

[murph]

Merrideth; google amquel and hit the second link for a better explanation of how it works than I could ever provide here.
Since its nearly impossible to overdose and actually works better at the higher PH in marine tanks those that make the understandable mistake of starting with tap water can actually dose enough of this on the first day to last the entire cycle since it will activate on any newly created ammonias.
Having the ammonia sensor to detect any elevating levels of free ammonia is key and if that happens the tank has to be dosed again. To answer your question on how to cycle without harming the damsels thats your answer. Do not allow free ammonias to build up in the tank. Thats why careful monitoring is paramount since these levels can build up quick and you have to be there to take action in the form of more amquel.
The good part and sometimes also the confusing part is that ammonia is not actually removed from the tank but is converted entirely to ionic. Since the bacteria that cycle a tank don't care what form the ammonia is the tank continues to cycle as normal. The confusing part comes when chemical base ammonia test are conducted that give a total ammonia reading, usually somewhere around .25 for a cycling tank. That level of free ammonia would indeed either kill the fish or cause irreparable damage to its respiratory system as you stated.
IMO having a ammonia sensor in the tank, which cost about ten bucks and can be hung in the fuge or sump so as not to detract from the DT and a bottle of Amquel or similar product on hand can alert you and buy you some time if something goes wrong with the bio filtration of your tank or any ammonia or chlorine based cleaning products are inadvertently introduced into your tank.

 

[wenisman]

Thank all you guys for the info. ill be sure to buy some amquel and a ammonia sensor before trying to add live stock.

 

[merredeth]

Originally Posted by wax32
wenisman....

¡Hola! Welcome to the boards!

Couldn't you have given wenisman a bigger banana?

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Denise M.

 

[1journeyman]

DON'T cycle with damsels... just use a raw shrimp.
1. It costs less. (amquel is not cheap and is totally unneccessary if you cycle with a shrimp).
2. Buying damsels encourages pet stores to keep selling them.
3. You will probably harm the damsel, unless you are mega vigilant.
4. You will hate yourself later when you have to dismantle your tank to remove the damsel (if it did survive). Damsels are mean, aggressive, and territorial. Not good aquarium inhabitants for the most part.
Yes, damsels use to be the way to go. CC and dead coral used to be the way to go too... Go with the latest, simplest, most humane way. There is simply nothing to lose by cycling with a cocktail shrimp.

 

[murph]

Journey; I hate to sound like Johnny Carson's side kick but, YOU ARE CORRECT.
The reasons you listed are the laundry list of reasons I alluded to not to bother with using livestock to cycle and I am sure if you thought about it you could come up with a list much longer.
My favorite;
It takes about a month to get all the rock work in the tank placed just right and looking good. The following week you get to remove all of that rock to net out the damsels that make any other fish you put in the tank paranoid as all get out and your back to square one :joy:

 

[merredeth]

Murph:
Thanks for the research and the explanations - I really appreciate any opportunity I can learn from others.
You made my day...
Denise M.

 

[phixer]

To each his own I suppose... it's good to hear a different opinion, can certainly respect that. Have cycled many tanks both ways... and yes, I know the shrimp is already dead, but it too was once alive very much like the hearty Damsel. Cycling can be done either way, do it how you prefer, one is not mutually better than the other when done correctly and closely monitoring the water chemistry especially the ammonia level. Or just get some sand or live rock from an established tank. Ive noticed that:
1. It costs 4 dollars more to cycle a tank with a Damsel as opposed to a peice of shrimp. Hardly worthy of cost analysis. Damsels are very cheap, 5 bucks each at our LFS, cycling with a live fish also teaches one to be more vigilant and encourages better awareness.
2. Damsels are easily bred in captivity, so I cant see how it really encourages the LFS to sell more of them for cycling. They dont make anymore profit from the sale of a Damsel then a nice goldfish, which is easier to maintain. Besides there are so many varieties, most people I know like to purchase them for their colors, not just for cycling...
3. Ive done it both ways and have never lost one. Have tried to keep a vigilant eye on the tank during cycling paying close attention to dissolved ammonia levels and a would definitely know if its one inhabitant was missing.
4. The aggressive nature of this fish depends on the species, Humbugs, Three spots and Cloudies can be aggressive towards members of the same species, thats why you only keep one. The Green and Blue Chromis are relatively peaceful, I have six Greens peacefully housed together in a 125 gallon tank. Its difficult to generalize with accuracy that all damsels are mean and aggresive when there are over 17 know species in the same family. Territorial aggression is largely dependant on the species and size of the inhabitants its housed with, any fish can be aggressive if the conditions are right, i.e food, territory, overcrowing, lack of refuge areas... guess Ive just been lucky, and have been able to manage these little fish without too much difficulty. Then again part of the reason many enjoy this hobby is because of the challenges marine species present... Just because something is "the norm" dosent mean its better. Anyone can cycle with a piece of meat. It takes a skilled aquariust to keep something alive.
Best regards
Phixer