Nitrate issues....

microbat

microbat

Member
I have just inherited a new tank - established for years but neglected for the last 18 months.
All the coral has died and just cleaned off red algae - all over the glass and some rocks. (Haven't scrubbed live rocks, new to salt water, not sure if you are supposed to..??)
Anyhoo, the nitrate seems to be around 250ppm, nice and high and the LFS has recommended 10% water changes daily until rectified.
Coming from fresh water tropical, normally a 50% water change and a nitrazorb pillow would come close to fixing the problem. Should I be doing larger water changes? Apparently my nitrazorb will do nothing in a salt water tank and the surviving fish are stressing out, especially the fox face.
Also, salinity was originally through the roof (around 1.026) which I have rectified slowly over two days. Sitting at a nice 1.022 now and steady.
Temp is at 75-76F depending on time of day and PH is steady at 8.
Any ideas on the nitrate issue would be great, and all advice is appreciated and welcome!
Thanks, Sheridan.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Hard to believe the 250 reading and the fish still being alive.
A 50% water change will not harm anything and will reduce the nitrates. Then a couple of days later another 50% if needed.
1.026 Sg is about perfect for a reef tank. 1.022 will do okay for a fish only. I would raise the temp slowly to around 78-80 degrees.
You can "scrub" the rocks in the water you take out of the tank for the water change. Use a tooth brush and lightly scub, then rinse by swishing around in salt water. Maybe take 1/2 of the change water in a container to scrub, 1/2 in another to rinse.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3180397
Hard to believe the 250 reading and the fish still being alive.
A 50% water change will not harm anything and will reduce the nitrates. Then a couple of days later another 50% if needed.
1.026 Sg is about perfect for a reef tank. 1.022 will do okay for a fish only. I would raise the temp slowly to around 78-80 degrees.
You can "scrub" the rocks in the water you take out of the tank for the water change. Use a tooth brush and lightly scub, then rinse by swishing around in salt water. Maybe take 1/2 of the change water in a container to scrub, 1/2 in another to rinse.
I really don't think fish are hurt by nitrates (inverts are), even at this level. Fenner's book (1st edition talks about fish even being kept with nitrates in the 1000"s ppm. Nitrate at 250ppm sure needs attention; its an indication that many other, and often unknown (IMO) water quality issues are present. I know this goes against all conventional thinking, but I've never seen any study that shows nitrates to hurt fish. Prior to Katrina, I kept many fish for 8-10 years with nitrates never below 100ppm. Now I don't worry as long as my nitrates are under 60-80 ppm in my fish-only tanks.
I sure agree with the rest of your post.
 
microbat

microbat

Member
wow, thanks for all of your advice, i will get onto a larger water change when i get home and remove the rocks with algae. I'll leave all the clean ones and ones that have little flowers popping in and out alone. The only fish that appears stressed is the foxface so i'm wondering if my chemicals are still working correctly with that reading... Any way, thanks again for your help, i'm sure i'll be doing a lot me reading and learning over the next few months!
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by microbat
http:///forum/post/3180647
i'm sure i'll be doing a lot me reading and learning over the next few months!
I wish I was smart enough to take this approach, SW fishkeeping is still relativly new and constantly improving, so reading & research is the only to stay on top of the best ways to do things.
Just an afterthought: are your test kits old, like the tank? Most kits should be replaced after being opened for a year---at most. Also, most nitrate test kits are notoriously unreliable, even when new.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3180487
I really don't think fish are hurt by nitrates (inverts are), even at this level. Fenner's book (1st edition talks about fish even being kept with nitrates in the 1000"s ppm. Nitrate at 250ppm sure needs attention; its an indication that many other, and often unknown (IMO) water quality issues are present. I know this goes against all conventional thinking, but I've never seen any study that shows nitrates to hurt fish. Prior to Katrina, I kept many fish for 8-10 years with nitrates never below 100ppm. Now I don't worry as long as my nitrates are under 60-80 ppm in my fish-only tanks.
I sure agree with the rest of your post.

goto the first link here please.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nitratesmar
 
microbat

microbat

Member
the salt water test came with the tank and i guess it would be just as old! I'll grab another test on the way home and see how it reads, perhaps the chemicals are just to old. Nice to know about their reliability though! Was doing some research and i'm thinking of putting together a mangrove system, has any one had experience with their success?
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3180705
goto the first link here please.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nitratesmar
Thanks! I read the piece at WetWeb; I still didn't see anything definitive that nitrates hurt fish. Maybe I missed something, I just saw the authors comments. I'm not defending nitrates at unlimited levels; but I'd think there would be lots of studies that show them to be harmful. It sure would boost the "nitrate reduction" business.
Here's something from Marine Depot:
Keith MacNeil, a Marine Depot Staff Member
Nitrate: The final byproduct of the nitrogen cycle (ammonia is broken down by
bacteria into nitrite and then into nitrate by a different bacteria). While it
is generally not considered harmful to fish, moderate to high levels can cause
significant problems with many invertebrates.......
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Here's what Bob Fenner says in the Conscience marine Aquarist (1st edition, he may have more in the 2nd). "There is no clear dividing line over which nitrate is absolutely harmful:conditioned fishes and invertebrates have been cultured in water of several hundred-even thousand--ppm. All that can be said without contradiction is that the lower numbers are better."
Again, I'm sure not suggesting high nitrates be ignored. But, judging by the posts on this forum, a whole lot of time & money is spent by owners of fish-only tanks who panic if their nitrates hit a level that may hurt a reef tank, but not fish. I'd bet companies like SeaChem or Kent have sponsored such research; but there just doesn't seem to be any evidence that nitrates hurt fish. So I'm not surprised that the fish in this thread have not been harmed by the high nitrate leve; although that level would sure suggest to me that there was something else that could be a real problem--due to the obvious lack of maintenance.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3181062
Thanks! I read the piece at WetWeb; I still didn't see anything definitive that nitrates hurt fish. Maybe I missed something, I just saw the authors comments........

The last paragraph;
"Ideally you want your nitrates to be as low as possible. For invertebrate-containing marine systems, a few ppm (up to five as a rule of thumb) is likely acceptable, and a few tens of ppm for fish-only systems. Just having "some" nitrate concentration present in the grand scheme of things that contribute to livestock health is not a real menace"
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3181112
The last paragraph;
"Ideally you want your nitrates to be as low as possible. For invertebrate-containing marine systems, a few ppm (up to five as a rule of thumb) is likely acceptable, and a few tens of ppm for fish-only systems. Just having "some" nitrate concentration present in the grand scheme of things that contribute to livestock health is not a real menace"
I agree. But, I wish there was some real research somewhere to establish a "norm". I have never heard of any real evidence that nitrate, at any level, hurts fish. Common sense says it should, my experience says it doesn't. This would be a good subject for a PhD candidate somewhere.
 
kjr_trig

kjr_trig

Active Member
SrFisher and I have discussed this before and we are on the same page. My first SW tank was a "true" FO with no LR at all, just fake corals and a wet/dry with bioballs. The tank was overstocked, and my nitrates I don't think were ever under 200. I know the nitrates didn't hurt the fish, as I went 3 1/2 years without a death, this included some very hardy fish (Huma, Niger, Lunare, Puffer, Snowflake), but also an Achilles Tang (often thought to be delicate). Like stated above, lower nitrates are better and it is a good goal to keep them lower, but high nitrates DO NOT harm most fish.
 
microbat

microbat

Member
ok, so we can establish that the fish are more than likely acclimated to the high nitrates due to the very bad maintenance, here is a real newby question for you....
are the branded coral shrimp or the long spiked black urchin classed as invertebrates? (oh forgive me for probably a very dumb question!! ROFL
)
the urchin was starving and sucked down 2 peas last night and the shrimp are on the prowl this morning with no lights on.
And just a bump for an earlier question, mangroves for nitrate reduction? has anyone had any experience with this?
Thanks, Sheridan
 
kjr_trig

kjr_trig

Active Member
Originally Posted by microbat
http:///forum/post/3181187
ok, so we can establish that the fish are more than likely acclimated to the high nitrates due to the very bad maintenance, here is a real newby question for you....
are the branded coral shrimp or the long spiked black urchin classed as invertebrates? (oh forgive me for probably a very dumb question!! ROFL
)
the urchin was starving and sucked down 2 peas last night and the shrimp are on the prowl this morning with no lights on.
And just a bump for an earlier question, mangroves for nitrate reduction? has anyone had any experience with this?
Thanks, Sheridan
Yes, the Urchin and Shrimp are inverts.
Mangroves are an interesting option, but Chaetomorpha is a more popular method.
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11...ot_parent_id=4
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by microbat
http:///forum/post/3181187
ok, so we can establish that the fish are more than likely acclimated to the high nitrates due to the very bad maintenance, here is a real newby question for you....
are the branded coral shrimp or the long spiked black urchin classed as invertebrates? (oh forgive me for probably a very dumb question!! ROFL
)
the urchin was starving and sucked down 2 peas last night and the shrimp are on the prowl this morning with no lights on.
And just a bump for an earlier question, mangroves for nitrate reduction? has anyone had any experience with this?
Thanks, Sheridan
If its an animal and not a mammal, reptile, amphibian, bird, my ex-Mother-in-Law, or a fish---ins an invert. I agree with Kirk on the Chaeto; but nothing but massive water changes is going to get you near where you want to be. SW nitrate reduction doesn't have any magic answers. I'd do massive water changes, get stuff cleaned up (all the dead algae & coral really produce the nitrates) and come up with a plan to start fresh & keep nitrates at a manageable level.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3181224
http://www.ec.gc.ca/ceqg-rcqe/Englis...itrate_WQG.cfm
http://www.alken-murray.com/TESTS01.htm
Some speculation in the 1st article. The main concern seems to be nitrate contributing to algae blooms...it sure does that.
The 2nd article says high nitrate may indicate poor water quality. I tend to agree.
However, neither article says that nitrate directly hurts fish; unless I missed it.
Really Spanko, if nitrate was harmful to fish, wouldn't be in every SW fish book ever written?
Again, I'm not saying high nitrate is nothing to consider. My point is simply that nitrates themselves don't hurt fish (at any level likely to be experienced by hobbyists).
 
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