Nitrate monster or not

florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
As we all know nitrate enters our tanks as the end product on nitrification or nitrogen fixation. And of course we all know that it should be less then 1PPM but it has been shown that elevated nitrate levels as high as 10PPM nitrate-nitrogen (approximately 40PPM nitrate ion) may encourage rapid growth of both soft and stony corals. As was researched and presented by D. Stuber after extensive research.
Actually the principal disadvantage nitrates have is the affect on alkalinity and PH. the accumulation of nitrate depletes the alkalinity in a closed system another disadvantage of higher levels of nitrates is that the stimulated growth due to the high nitrates will cause greater usage of calcium.
Hobbyists are actually maintaining an increased level of nitrates to stimulate coral growth. What these hobbyists do practice is the constant monitoring of calcium and alkalinity and supplement as needed. It is also believed that higher nitrate levels will necessitate higher additions of iodine.
As far as fish are concerned in fish only tanks, nitrate can run much higher then in a typical reef aquarium with no apparent negative effects as long as ph is maintained. (Delbeek and Sprung)
The point I would like to make is that nitrate is not the evil monster that we spend so much time and money to remove
 
veni vidi vici

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Ive read the same from a few other experts/chemists as well that have said the same.Its basically not as dangerous as once thought.However it can be as a source of nutrients linked to the growth of algae.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Conversely, little to no nitrate in the tank allows for increased feeding and so increased growth. Look to some of the information on carbon dosing (vodka - sugar) and the use of some of the new(er) products specifically to reduce nitrates to zero and keep them there.
Zeovit Prodibio etc.
There is a thread I posted on Italian tanks I ran across doing some reading on sugar - vodka dosing. They feed the tanks very heavily and are documenting increase growth as well as more vibrant color.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869559
Conversely, little to no nitrate in the tank allows for increased feeding and so increased growth. Look to some of the information on carbon dosing (vodka - sugar) and the use of some of the new(er) products specifically to reduce nitrates to zero and keep them there.
Zeovit Prodibio etc.
There is a thread I posted on Italian tanks I ran across doing some reading on sugar - vodka dosing. They feed the tanks very heavily and are documenting increase growth as well as more vibrant color.
Henry are you following me
as far as feeding are you talking about fish or filter feeders
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Maybe chemical dosing is the real monster. A thought to ponder...
"Trace Metals: The Toxic Time Bomb In Marine Reef Aquaria - Dr. Ronald Shimek
It's Friday at 3 pm, and Dr. Shimek starts the conference with something most aquarists would rather not hear: the water in our tanks has higher levels of toxic heavy metals than EPA-identified "superfund" sites! Dr. Shimek began by briefly reviewing his earlier studies; the food content study (information available at Aquarium Fish Magazine) and the tank water study (information available in Volume 1, Issue 3 of Reefkeeping Magazine). These two studies indicated that hobbyists are adding a great deal more of certain substances, especially potentially toxic heavy metals, than what is found in natural seawater (NSW).
He then proceeded to discuss an analysis of various methods of nutrient export to determine what was being removed. Shimek was provided samples of Caulerpa, skimmate, skimmer sludge (that thick slime that forms inside the skimmer uplift tube), and Xenia by various hobbyists who participated in this study. These hobbyists also paid for the samples to be tested at a laboratory utilizing Inductively Coupled Plasma (ICP) Emission Spectrometry to determine the element contents of the export.
The study showed that skimmers are almost useless at removing these potentially toxic heavy metals. Xenia and Caulerpa did a better job of removing these metals, but the average hobbyist would have to remove inordinately high amounts for this to be an effective method of controlling these elements (in the neighborhood of several pounds of Caulerpa per day). Since artificial saltwater mixes also contain high amounts of these metals, water changes would also be an ineffective means of removal.
Since it doesn't appear the average hobbyist is removing these elements, and since every tank doesn't crash, Dr. Shimek proposed the following as possible means of detoxification of the heavy metals: inorganic precipitation in live rock and sediments, adsorption of elements on live rock and sand, iron hydroxide complexes, and binding with organic materials (such as humic acids). The iron hydroxide complexes represent a real possibility for effective removal, since hobbyists add high levels of iron to their tanks (primarily through feeding), and yet none of the tank water samples tested showed iron present.
Dr. Shimek's conclusion was that "old tank syndrome" may be an artifact of these toxic heavy metal levels, either due to the accumulation of so much of this toxic material that the system is no longer able to detoxify it, or through some precipitating event (such as a pH crash). Further study is necessary to answer many of the questions raised by Dr. Shimek's work, and the information gathered in the full study will be released in an upcoming issue of Reefkeeping Magazine."
BTW, my inverts don't like nitrates.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869559
Conversely, little to no nitrate in the tank allows for increased feeding and so increased growth. Look to some of the information on carbon dosing (vodka - sugar) and the use of some of the new(er) products specifically to reduce nitrates to zero and keep them there.
Zeovit Prodibio etc.
There is a thread I posted on Italian tanks I ran across doing some reading on sugar - vodka dosing. They feed the tanks very heavily and are documenting increase growth as well as more vibrant color.
Henry vodka dosing is one of the very few things in this hobby I know something about.
The stimulation of growth and color in corals through vodka dosing is not do to the fact that there is not nitrate in the water it is just the opposite. The ethanol, which is supplied via the vodka, stimulates the growth of heterotrophic bacteria in the water column that assimilate nitrogen and phosphates. True it lowers the level of nitrates( but only after the bio mass is removed by skimming or filter media cleaning) but he stimulation and color enhancement is the result of the increased availability of the dissolved organic matter (ethanol) with corals feed on so well being stored in the bio mass
This is the corner stone of eco systems where bacteria is introduced that feeds on nitrates to form bio mass and the bio mass with its consintratin of nitrates and phosphates is feed upon by corals
I love what we bring to the table you and I my friend
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
I'm still not sure what these threads are doing in new hobbyist?

Little to no new hobbyists are able to grasp these concepts yet.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Talking about actually feeding the coral. They feed that coral quite heavily after attaining zero nitrate from the dosing of Sugar - vodka - and or believe it or not HGH (human growth hormone) then from the additional volume of anaerobic bacteria created from the carbon dosing (vodka - sugar - HGH) they were able to feed more heavily and have the resultant ammonia-nitrites-nitrates removed quickly before becomming a problem. This addition coral feeding resulted in faster growth and enhanced color.
Of course there was always the noise in the background about should we be increasing growth speed for our own pleasure by creating "false" conditions that maximize growth. (darn coral huggers)
There is also a danger in the carbon dosing schemes where by you increase the anaerobic bacteria then do not "feed" them enough, they crash and in essence you have a worse nitrate problem than what you started with. The other side benefit was the reduction in all types of algae.
That has been what I have been gleaning from the discussions over on -- and other sites where they are discussing this. Am not not reading correctly, or getting the full value of what I am reading?
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/2869651
I'm still not sure what these threads are doing in new hobbyist?

Little to no new hobbyists are able to grasp these concepts yet.
Joe is sparking interest in the unknown amongst the people that do not know these practices exist.

Further the knowledge Joe.

I just hope we don't have a bunch of peeps pouring Vinegar, C&H and Absolut into their fuge.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/2869651
I'm still not sure what these threads are doing in new hobbyist?

Little to no new hobbyists are able to grasp these concepts yet.
Sorry this may have evolved into a non beginner topic the good mods can move it to another area if needed
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Joe, investigated any on the Prodibio products that follow along the dosing lines?
Oh yeah,
Henry are you following me
with your grasp on things certainly couldn't be leading.....
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869654
Talking about actually feeding the coral. They feed that coral quite heavily after attaining zero nitrate from the dosing of Sugar - vodka - and or believe it or not HGH (human growth hormone) then from the additional volume of anaerobic bacteria created from the carbon dosing (vodka - sugar - HGH) they were able to feed more heavily and have the resultant ammonia-nitrites-nitrates removed quickly before becomming a problem. This addition coral feeding resulted in faster growth and enhanced color.
Of course there was always the noise in the background about should we be increasing growth speed for our own pleasure by creating "false" conditions that maximize growth. (darn coral huggers)
There is also a danger in the carbon dosing schemes where by you increase the anaerobic bacteria then do not "feed" them enough, they crash and in essence you have a worse nitrate problem than what you started with. The other side benefit was the reduction in all types of algae.
That has been what I have been gleaning from the discussions over on -- and other sites where they are discussing this. Am not not reading correctly, or getting the full value of what I am reading?
Henry vodka dosing has no effect on anaerobic bacteria other then inhibiting its growth by removing nitrates. vodka dosing stimulates the growth of heterotrophic bacteria with stay in the water column untill it is removed by skimming or filter cleaning or eaten by corals. By the way some people use xenia in their refuges because of their ability to feed on nitrates
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2869662
Joe is sparking interest in the unknown amongst the people that do not know these practices exist.

Further the knowledge Joe.

I just hope we don't have a bunch of peeps pouring Vinegar, C&H and Absolut into their fuge.
all of which by the way have there uses in our tanks with the right understanding
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869674
Joe, investigated any on the Prodibio products that follow along the dosing lines?
Oh yeah, with your grasp on things certainly couldn't be leading.....

Not prodibio but there is an underground product AZ-NO3 produced by Monolith Marine Monsters that’s very interesting
 
socal57che

socal57che

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2869698
all of which by the way have there uses in our tanks with the right understanding
Yes, and as you said, "with the right understanding", so we don't want people to just start dosing this stuff without researching it thoroughly. I don't treat nitrates like the devil, but rather use the results as an indicator of what is occuring in my tank(s). One of the issues with cultivating macroalgaes is that we can lose sight of our base line. Where would I be if my caulerpa, chaeto and xenia were not absorbing and exporting these chemicals/compounds. They could mask a growing issue until it is a real problem. (like food/waste accumulation)
I would rather keep my trates well under control than feed less to get the same growth from a coral. With water changes and biological export I can achieve similar results and not have to worry about the side effects of elevated nitrate levels.
It is simply a matter of what I am comfortable with.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2869817
Yes, and as you said, "with the right understanding", so we don't want people to just start dosing this stuff without researching it thoroughly. I don't treat nitrates like the devil, but rather use the results as an indicator of what is occuring in my tank(s). One of the issues with cultivating macroalgaes is that we can lose sight of our base line. Where would I be if my caulerpa, chaeto and xenia were not absorbing and exporting these chemicals/compounds. They could mask a growing issue until it is a real problem. (like food/waste accumulation)
I would rather keep my trates well under control than feed less to get the same growth from a coral. With water changes and biological export I can achieve similar results and not have to worry about the side effects of elevated nitrate levels.
It is simply a matter of what I am comfortable with.
My friend one of the best posts I have read since getting evolved with this site
 
trouble93

trouble93

Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2869559
Conversely, little to no nitrate in the tank allows for increased feeding and so increased growth. Look to some of the information on carbon dosing (vodka - sugar) and the use of some of the new(er) products specifically to reduce nitrates to zero and keep them there.
Zeovit Prodibio etc.
There is a thread I posted on Italian tanks I ran across doing some reading on sugar - vodka dosing. They feed the tanks very heavily and are documenting increase growth as well as more vibrant color.
Someone just last week told me about Vodka dosing and I to LOL and asked are you for real...Went home and did so reading and found out it is real and it works!!! me myself I will not try it because I do not understand it all, but from what I do understand it is something to be looked into.
 
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