Nitrate Poisoning

[sarahmorton2003]

We've got a nitrate problem that's stumping us and the folks at the fish store despite a lot of internet research and all their knowledge. Our tank is 5 months old and has been doing very well. All the levels were tested and tracked as we expected based on all the reading we did before we started the tank. We test for High Range PH, Nitrate, Nitrite, Phosphate, Calcium, and Ammonia. We had a play coral and a small open brain coral. About two to three weeks ago they began deteriorating quickly leaving us with two skeleton rocks. {When the problem first started we raised the salinity to 35ppm since corals like higher salt levels to try to help. This caused some unidentified parasite problem which killed our blenny. We are treating the parasite infection with Melafix.} Our levels for Nitrate were increased to 20-40ppm, from 10 or lower. We added a Kent Marine Nitrate Sponge in the sump and PhosX to bring down the nitrate levels. We have done several 20% water changes. We have cut back on the amount of food we present at feeding times and target feed when possible. Despite all these efforts our Nitrates are still 40-80 ppm. Suggestions, Comments, HELP!?

 

[beth]

First off, never add "meds" to a reef tank....including the so called "reef safe" meds.
Reading thru your post Wet/Dry came to mind...and, sure enough, you list the that you are using a wet/dry in your signature.
What do you have in your wet/dry filter? Pads, bioballs?
Looks like you only have about an inch of sand in there? What did you use for base rock?

 

[sarahmorton2003]

Our wet/dry has filter pads on top with a layer of activated carbon in the middle of them, bioballs under that, then a medium pourous sponge bfore filling the sump.
We have about two and half inches of live sand at the bottom, so my signature is inaccurate. Not sure on the type of base rock.

 

[beth]

IMO wet/drys are nitrate factories. They work remarkably well thru the nitrogen cycle until it gets to the "nitrate" stage, and then they "poop" out. Think about it. What exactly does a wet/dry do??
Traps dirt, uneaten food, detritus, etc. When you clean your sponges, pads, media, whatever is in your wet/dry, what does it look like?? Is it clean? Or is it pretty darn dirty? If the answer is "dirty" and all the water in your tank is passing thru this "dirty" filter, then what do you think might be the end result? Nitrate. A healthy tank that completes the nitrogen cycle effectively has a balance between the import [organics that go in to the tank] and the export [the mechanism that organics leave the tank] thus effectively achieving a complete nitrogen cycle where little or no nitrates are present. The wet/dry’s job is to trap the excess organics, which it does very well, but it can not effectively break down the excess organics. The hobbyists must regularly clean components of the wet/dry to “export” these organics.
I don't really know what type of setup you are aiming to create, FO or reef? If the emphasis is on FISH then the wet/dry and other types of mechanical filtrations will be necessary. You will also have to understand that to keep nitrates low, you will need to do weekly maintenance on these filters and be diligent about doing water changes on your tank. If you are aiming to go for a reef, then the wet/dry, IMO, needs to go. You will never keep inverts in a system with high, or even moderate nitrates. And, even fish, don't like high nitrates.
What is your goal for this setup, and what is your maintenance routine?

 

[sarahmorton2003]

We are aiming for a reef tank. Our local marine/reef pet store recommended the wet/dry over a fluval/eheim canister, which we were considering. What is your recommendation? We are still early enough in this to change our filtration components, as this is not a short term hobby.
Our maintenance schedule is rather extensive.
Rinse all sponges twice daily
empty/rinse protein skimmer collection cup once daily
10% water change every five days
clean siphon/PS once a week
filter maintenance (monthly) replace/replenish carbon/nitrate sponge, rinse/clean pads, sponges, filter surfaces.
Back to filters, if we replace our filtration we need to let the bio filter reestablish, how will this effect the tank? Can we tansfer some of the media to take advantage of the bio maturity?

 

[beth]

Originally posted by sarahmorton2003
Our maintenance schedule is rather extensive.
Rinse all sponges twice daily
empty/rinse protein skimmer collection cup once daily
10% water change every five days
clean siphon/PS once a week
filter maintenance (monthly) replace/replenish carbon/nitrate sponge, rinse/clean pads, sponges, filter surfaces.

Man, what a hassle! All this work every day/week and you still have nitrates! That should tell you something.
Let me tell you about my own set up:
72 gal bowfront., set up now for a bit over a yr. [Formerly a FO]
6" deep sand bed, mostly used live sand to establish, but it also has a good amt of dry sand. Particle size is between .02-1.7.
100lbs of LR, which was really too much. I'm going to have to get rid of at least 25lbs of the LR to accommodate coral growth and other organism additions.
6 maxijet 1200 powerheads strategically placed in the lower and upper sections of the tank to ensure total circulation.
RemoraPro Hang on skimmer using the Rio1400 powerhead with accompanying surface-skimmer box.
Yep, that it! No mechanical filters, except for the Remora skimmer. The Live Rock and Live Sand, accompanied with the deep sand bed detritrivores that I have easily cultivated is my filtration mode.
This tank never cycled. Never had ammonia, nitrite, phosphate. Never has had any nitrates. I feed my tank too much, and I have never had a nitrate problem. Actually, I’ve never had nitrates at all. Never. This is what is known in the hobby as a "Natural System".
How often do I clean the substrate? Never, the DSB must be left alone to work effectively. The sand bed detrivores [infauna] do that for me.
Water changes? When I feel like it. Maybe 4-5 gals a month. I should really do 1 gal a day, but haven’t.
Top off water, 1 gal distilled water 1x daily.
I do clean the screens to the powerheads whenever they get clogged to ensure adequate water flow.
I should clean up the skimmer cup more often, but don't. Probably every 2 wks, this gets done.
Never clean the skimmer because it has become a refugium for my snails and copepods.
This is just my system, and there are certainly other ways to set up a reef tank, by IMO, the wet-dry, in a reef, is a bad idea. You can see how much time you are dedicating to cleaning this stuff up, and for what? You still have nitrates!
What is your water source? Are you using tab water? What does your water test for nitrates BEFORE adding salt?
I would suggest that you visit our Reef Forum and ask exp. reefers how they have their sytems set up. Also, there are good books on the subject, which you can read up on. If you decide to not use the wet/dry, you might be able to convert it into a sump or a refugium, which would be very useful. I don't have either on my tank.

 

[beth]

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...el_080998.html
http://rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

 

[sarahmorton2003]

Beth - Thanks for the articles/links, interesting reading and very insightful. We filter the tap water and the nitrates are 0 after going through the filter (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Filter).
Terry B - As you were typing, we were scopping out bioballs.
We are converting our wet/dry to a wet! Man, I wish we knew about this place before we started. The reef tanks threads have tripled our knowledge in the last few days. Good practical knowledge! We will let you know how it all turns out.
I spoke with a water quality guy at the National Aquarium in Baltimore and he said water changes of about 150% of the tank capacity over several weeks are the only appreciable way to get the nitrates down. He was not familiar with any of the commercial products that we relocated to the space once occupied by bioballs.
Thanks
J&S