Not a good night!

[monica]

Sorry, I'm just upset and thought I would put my info. on here and see what happens. I have had such a hard time with my tank. I have worked so hard and put so much money into this and I can see it is not going to work! The really bad part about my little story is my water is perfect!!! I have a 75 gal., 100 lbs. of lr, a clown fish, a royal gramma, and until tonight a blue hippo (that I have had for a long time), two sally lightfoots, two horseshoe crabs,and two scarlet crabs that are alive but won't do anything. I keep trying to put in snails and they will not live even for a few minutes! I put them in the way I should a couple times. My crabs won't move! I can't keep the tank from growing stuff if I can't keep these things alive! I had two cleaner shrimp but they died. I do not get it! I just hooked my filter with the carbon in it up because a lfs said it would help. Now my blue hippo is gone and before my fish were always fine. I loved my blue hippo. I am just stuck. If my water is perfect I don't know where else to go. Thanks for listening to me!

 

[cap'n pete]

Not to sound like a jerk, but obviously the water is not perfect. I feel for your loss. There must be something wrong or you wouldn't be losing stuff at that rate. What are your levels? What kind of tests are you doing? What kind of water changes? We could go on and on. Why don't you start giving us some of your details and we will try to exclude each thing one at a time until we find out what's wrong. Besides, that's what this board is for.

 

[sgt__york]

Monica, hang in there. Patience is the key ingredient to sucess in the salt acquarium hobby. And I know it's tough losing a prize fish you had for awhile - it's like any other loss. Give yourself a bit of time to vent and grieve before just giving up tho. In the meantime, give us some more information about the tank. I'm not sure I have many answer, but the additional info might help the more experienced audience get the picture.
- How long has the tank been setup?
- How long have you had the various fish in the tank? Introduced anything new lately?
- You said the water is fine - what exactly have you checked? and what levels? (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, phosphate, salinity, etc)
- You said, u can't stop ur tank from growing stuff if you can't keep these things alive. WHAT is ur tank growing? green algae? red? etc..
- Do you notice your fish breathing heavy or having any other symptoms? lines/holes on their sides?
- Do they have a good food source? what/how often do you feed them?
- What kind of circulation do you have in the tank?

 

[monica]

You do not sound like a jerk. I said the same thing to my lfs but they can't figure it out. They say my water is perfect. Here's what I say with my tests. Ammo .25 (the fish store said it was good but I think it is up a little. But it stays at that level and hasn't gone up for a month. I wonder if I am just reading it wrong.)My ph is 8.2 but again I'm not sure if I am reading it right. It is a blue color and my test shows it a purple color. When the lfs tested it they said it was perfect. Alk is 3.2, Nitrate is 20 (fish store says it is fine), Nitrite is 0, salinity is 1.024, Calcium is good. I am using red sea tests for ph and alk and calcium. Dry-Tab for ammonia and test strips for nitrates and nitrites. Thanks for any help!

 

[sgt__york]

can you answer some of the other questions above? how mature is the tank? how long has it been running? are you seeing some die-off of the rock?
PERFECT to even 'normal' is 0 ammonia. I'm not sure why the lfs is saying .25 is ok. Nagging ammonia means something is dying off. Or possibly overfeeding.
Also Nitrate of 20 (unless i'm wrong) usually means it's about time for a 10%-20% water change.
Also, you talked about things growing in ur tank. Can you elaborate? are you having red (sinobacteria) or green hair algae taking over? What is it your wanting the snails and crabs to eat?
Also have you tested the water for Phosphates and copper? Are there any other 'chemicals' your using on the tank?

 

[ruaround]

You shouldnt have any amonia reading at all!!! There is your problem right there. Have you added anything new to the tank lately?

 

[monica]

Okay, I'll try to give much more info. My tank has been set up for about two years. I switched from fish only and cc to dsb and lr about seven months ago. Then about three months ago I bought two cleaner shrimp, two cucumbers, two sally lightfoots, two horseshoe crabs, four emerald crabs,three feather dusters, some scarlet crabs and some snails. One of my cucumbers died and the sallylight foots got him. The other one didn't look good at all so I got rid of him. They gave off some white stuff that went on the feather dusters and they couldn't open and died. But I don't believe it was poison because my fish were all still fine for months after that. I have had the fish for a long time. I have two scarlet crabs that didn't die but they just come out and back in and haven't moved for a month. My cleaner shrimp died. My emerald crabs lived for quite awhile and now died. I have no snails because they don't even live for a few minutes when they hit my water. My blue hippo was great but I tried to fix the water by putting a Alk. buffer in last night and I think I killed him. The other fish are still good though. (clown and royal gramma) As for stuff growing, I have brown covering my lr that was growing lots of good purple color but it is now getting covered with brown. I feed the fish usually once a day. I have two old power heads. One on each side and a new power head down low on the tank that I just took off. Should you have one down low? I have a sump and a protien skimmer in the sump. I do not know if I should keep the filter with the carbon on it or not! I have also been adding B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System Step 1 and 2. Any help would be great!!! Thanks so much!

 

[monica]

I also should add that I use tap water still for my water changes.

 

[byrself]

i'd get a water report, from your water company. there may be contaminants in the source water?
also, when you switched to the dsb, did you remove the cc? you shouldn't have that high of nitrates if you have a good dsb? i thought that was the purpose? <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" />

 

[watcher]

are you running a ground probe, could anything have gotten into the tank? The invert situation sounds like copper, but then again....it could be an electrical current is in your tank, but that should spark you...
I'm a little stumped.

 

[sgt__york]

Sounds like to me.. ur primary problem is AMMONIA! Seems you have a constant death toll that is sending ur sytem through a minor cycle - that in turn kills something else - which spikes ur ammonia again, etc. Could also be some die-off from the Live Rock from high Nitrates (i'd be curious what the Calcium and Phosphate levels are)
Ammonia should be 0. Nitrate should NOT be 20 - that's about as high as they should go, before you do 20% water changes.
In addition the brown algea taking over ur rock could be sinobacteria. Could be poor/old lighting and/or too much phosphates in the water. If your lights are older than 6mo's might wanna replace them (don't wait till they burn out - they lose their spectrum/intensity far before they burn out). Test for phosphates. If you have some you can get a phosphate spong to help remove them. In addition, there are chemicals out to help fight/remove sinobacteria now (may some more experienced hobbiest can give you namebrands on them).
I would begin to seriously question the integrity of the person at the LFS that is telling you your water is "PERFECT" - your evidence and the fact of ammonia and high nitrates are anything but. Do test for phosphates and copper as well.
Also you mentioned your using tap water. Are you using any form of R/O or D/I filter?? If not, is STRONGLY recommended. Personally, i find Aquarium Pharmaceuticals "Tap Water Purifier" (which is d/i - deionized water) works very well. Much better than pure tap water with chemical treatments for chlorine, phosphates, etc.
As far as the blue hippo dying and all - fish are a bit stronger and more resiliant to low levels of ammonia and other water impurities than corals. However, other changes when they are already stressed can be enough to push em over the edge.
I would say, find the source of ur ammonia problem, and MUCH of your problems will likely be solved.
I would do a 20% water change each day for about 3 days. On day 1 - Use a powerhead to blow off all the debris on your live rock and try to remove as much as you can. After it settles down a bit, clean your substrate w/a gravel cleaner. This should help reduce ur nitrate level.
What you need to do now is "NOT" introduce anything new into the tank until your ammonia is 0 and STAYS 0 for a week or so. You may find your tank doing a minor cycle to increase the biological filter. Wait and let the system reach and equilibrium. THEN, when you add fish again - do it slowly - 1 or 2 at a time.
It helps to keep a fish diary for tracking ur chemical levels. Keep testing ur ammonia every couple days and see if they are spiking and then returning to 0, or if it's a constant nagging problem - which would then likey point to live rock die-off (due to not enough light; calcium, stronium or iodine) and/or possibly not enough media area to support the life load - use bio-balls and a wet/dry if you need.
Hope some of this helps.

 

[kelly]

I agree that the ammonia and nitrates are contributing to your problem. But I would not clean the substrate if you have a DSB. If you are feeding your fish every day and choose to do so, cut back on the amount you are feeding them, or go to every other day.
Before even thinking about a phosphate sponge, test your water for phosphates. I would also recommend the copper test. What is your water temperature? I would also stay away from the wet/dry filter system, and how deep is your DSB?

 

[monica]

Thanks for all the advice. I will start trying to figure this out! I hate to lose everything! I did take all the cc out. I put in 150 lbs. of Southdown sand and 20lbs. of ls over the top. My water is at 78. Thanks again. I can use any help I can get! I keep spending all this time on the tank thinking once it is going good I won't be ignoring my family for my fish! I'm starting to think that isn't possible. (I'm not really ignoring my family, but you know what I mean) I hope this gets at least some what easier! I am going to get something to filter my water also. I have to look into what and how yet.

 

[rick58]

Kelly, I would fill a couple of jugs with the water in you tank that you can run tests against and start the water changes mentioned above immediately. Don't wait to find out what's wrong before starting. I would get an RO filter, but unfortunately they take time to get going and won't generate enough RO water as quickly as you probably need it. All the advice above sounds reasoned - especially about the ammonia. Calibrate your ammonia test kit against pure water, where it should read 0 and against water with a little windex where it will read higher. Then you'll know if it's accurate at .25. If it is, a good cleaning (as mentioned), alot of water changes until the levels drop and the addition of a more robust clean-up crew may be in order.
In the big picture this is just a minor setback - don't let it get to you.

 

[broomer5]

Monica,
I'll add my thoughts here as well.
I've never been a big fan of Dry Tab ammonia kits. Assuming this kit is giving you accurate results and a constant reading of .25 is odd.
What's been the history of using this ammonia kit ?
Over the years, has your ammonia level EVER read zero using this kit ?
Ammonia can exist in a tank in two forms.
Non-toxic form ammonia ion NH4+
and
Toxic form ammonia NH3
Your pH reading sounds as if there is some question in your mind as well.
If you do indeed have ammonia present, and your pH rises, some of the non-toxic ammonia will shift to the toxic form.
Ammonia readings and high pH are lethal combinations.
If you added too much alkalinity buffer too fast - there's a chance that your drove your pH up - resulting in more toxic ammonia - that may have lead to the death of the blue hippo.
That's assuming you do indeed have ammonia present.
If your dry tab ammonia test kit has given you zero readings in the past - then I would guess you do have ammonia present now.
If this test kit has always given you questionable readings in the low end of the scale - try this .....
Mix up a 1 gallon batch of NEW saltwater using 1 gallon of RO or distilled water from the store.
Mix your salt to S.G. 1.024
Make sure it's at least at room temperature or 75 -80 degrees F.
Let is aerate for several hours - overnight even better.
Test this 1 gallon of new saltwater for ammonia using your Dry Tab test kit.
If it reads zero - then you'll know the kit's okay.
If it still reads 0.25 ..... ditch this kit and buy a different one.
FasTest makes a good ammonia kit IMO.
When you acclimate snails - they normally will not move around for some time. A day or two of inactivity is nothing to be too concerned with in my experience.
You stated that your snails die immediatley after placing them in your tank.
Are you sure they were dead ?
What lead you to think they were dead ?
With 100 lbs of live rock, a DSB, in a 75 gallon tank that's been running for 7 months - and the few fish you have - I find it very odd that you're experiencing this condition.
I still think we're missing something here.
I suppose others may be right with the possibility of overfeeding as an ammonia source - but still not totally convinced on that.
Lastly -
Do you use a dechlorinator with your tap water ?
How often do you top off the tank/sump due to evaporation ?
How much top off water do you add at a time ?

 

[byrself]

also monica, if the tap water is bothering you like it should be, maybe check into some ro from the fish store, or also maybe purchase bottled distilled. also, just my personal opinion on this, i think if you are going to get your own filter, go ahead and get the ro/di instead of just the ro. might as well go all out with it, i personally feel the deionized is important also. jmo, good luck..

 

[monica]

My ammo. test has never read 0. That's why I will check the test because it always stays at the same point. Never up or down. I watch the snails go into there shell and then a couple days later they smell terrible! I usually use Aquarium Novaqua conditioner and fish protector, but they ran out at the lfs so I started using stress coat with aloe vera. (aquarium pharmaceuticals, inc.) I have just been adding water to the sump for my top offs. Maybe once a week. It's not that much water.

 

[rick58]

I am not sure whether using these is a good idea or not, I've only used them on my freshwater aquarium. However, the NovAqua I believe does nutralize some copper and I don't believe the Stress Coat does. This could be a clue for your snails and crabs... or not.
The fish may be another issue...

 

[rhomer]

Every one here is pointing to ammonia, but ammonia won't kill snails that quick. I would bet big money that this is an elevated copper level, or some other heavy metal. If your fish are fine, but you can't seem to keep inverts alive, especially snails, you should test for copper. Any level of copper shown will cause snail to die almost immediatly. You can get a copper sponge, or a heavy metal sponge. You are most likely introducing this in by using tap water for your saltwater and top off water. If you have any live rock in your tank this will have absorbed the metal in it, and it will take a lot of copper sponges to absorb all of it out.

 

[cap'n pete]

Monica,
Make things easy on yourself. Use RO water only! This should be sold at machines in your local grocery (Kroger, Walmart, Meijer, etc.) for about 40 cents or less per gallon. Tap water is not worth the risk. God knows what your putting in your tank, pesticides, copper, nitrates, the list goes on and on. Make a few water changes with the RO water (gradual) and you will probably notice a big difference right away.
---
The algea is an indicator that either the tank is trying to cycle again or you have high phosphates. Clean as much algea up as you can, do a 25% water change, and cut back on feeding. Also go ahead and use carbon to try and pull out any copper, etc. in the system. Use for about four days then pull out. Invest in a good test kit that includes at least pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. A test for phosphate would be beneficial also so you can moniter those levels.