piggy back fuge

[handbanana]

Is it possible to stack a 10 gallon on top of a 20 gallon criss crossed and have your DT empty into the ten gallon fuge on top, then through a siphon u-tube down to the 20 gallon sump below it, and back to the DT?
I'm trying to figure out a way to sync the flow out of the syphon tube out of the fuge with the flow in. and then the flow out of my sump with the flow into and out of my fuge. I'm not getting anywhere.

 

[acrylic51]

I understand what your talking about but I think like you realize the issues with the u tune siphon.... IMHO not very reliable or trustworthy in this situation. I think you'll always be messing with the flow of the pump. Why not drill the 10 gallon with a bulkhead instead of u tube syphon?

 

[beaslbob]

very possible.
the refug as pictured will need an overflow just like the display tank. You might try the pvc type overflows.
Looks to me like if the refug floods it will just drain into the sump anyway. Plus you could adjust the system to where if either the display or refug overflow fails, the sump runs out of water.
my .02

 

[beaslbob]

Ps.
if you use a plastic storage container for the refug you can always just drill a hole in that container for the overflow.
my .02

 

[beaslbob]

One other thought.
when I setup a test system I at first used a 1" diameter pvc between refug and sump. I found it did not drain fast enough and had to use a much larger diameter pvc like 2" or so. So bigger is better.
my .02

 

[acrylic51]

True 2" would drain faster but still think the overflow idea is complicating the process a bulkhead would work and if it overflowed like layed out I think you'd have water on the floor

 

[handbanana]

Acrylic, BeaslBob
You guys rock!
I'm still monkeying around with pipes and such. I see many downsides to this setup now.
I like the idea of a plastic bin, Ive been told that a ten gal is very thin glass making it tricky to drill. I wanted to use a ten because I have the full hood with lights. But that's no biggie.
Would this setup be more reliable if I threw a pump from fuge to sump? Would it have to be the exact same pump as my return? Or could I run a small diverted line from my return pump to the fuge, then back to the sump, so the full DT drain is not going into the fuge? Im just juggeling these options.
Thanks a million everybody!

 

[acrylic51]

You could divert some of your return water to the fuge, but why not feed the fuge with dirty water? I think the issue with your plan of adding another pump they would have to be matched closely and I think to dial it in you'd have to use a "gate" valve instead of a "ball" valve, to give yourself infinite adjustment. Still the problem I think you might find is that you'll need to make constant adjustments to keep water level consistent, and if a pump would slow for what ever reason another issue at hand..
I don't think a 10 gallon would be any harder to drill than a 20 or so on....Patience and keep it cool while grinding....Actually I don't think it would be super expensie or hard if you did your purposed fuge out of acrylic. That way you could build it to the exact size needed, and you could incorporate your overflow or such right into the build????

 

[handbanana]

Very good points, But what a gate valve if you dont mind me asking
Is it where instead of the ball turning to restrict water a flap is lowered to restrict water?
I like the acrylic idea, I could make it to fit inside the lip of the twenty gallon, also how about this, what if I made one drain on the fuge one height, say 9" than another at 10" or 11" that way if the fuge filled up to much it would hit the secondary drain. Then I could have the drains directly out of the bottom of the tank, insted of over the side. if that makes any sense...
Thanks for the fresh ideas, I like to hear others imput.

 

[acrylic51]

A gate valve is like your outdoor faucet, where it gives you a little more precise control over a ball valve which you can adjust but not easily fine tuned. Your idea on dual drains at different heights would work quite well.

 

[i<3reefs]

Yes, but drilling your top tank would be much easier. My aquarium dumps into a 110g tub, and then pours into a 40g tub. The only surprise I found out was my 1.5" drain to my 110 drains marginally faster than my 2" drain to my 40g tub. I'm assuming this has something to do with having more gravity, and the stand pipe. I would put a stand pipe in the 10g, it would be quieter than my side drain. I have a ball valve on my return line with the larger pump, so I can maintain the water level in my sump easier. Apparently my 300gph and my 600gph (rounding) pumps pump faster than the water can return from the 110g to my 40g. That ball valve allowed me to reduce the flow a little to maintain my sump level. I would have loved to stack mine, but height would not allow it.
Edited to add photo that didn't upload.

 

[handbanana]

Awesome! Thanks for the Ideas!
I<3reefs, That looks awesome. Do you experence a lot of evap from that huge tub?
So a stand pipe comes from the bottom of the tank, correct? Or vertically from the sump?
Hey ACRYLIC, thanks for the info, Do you think three pipes would be even better? I think you have a good point about dirty water, I just am a bit uneasy about having my DT drain into a ten gallon or small tub. Seems like sooner or later its water on the floor.
Thanks again.

 

[spanko]

http://www.myreefaquarium.com/aquari...e_refugium.cfm

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by Handbanana
http:///forum/post/3270550
Acrylic, BeaslBob
You guys rock!
I'm still monkeying around with pipes and such. I see many downsides to this setup now.
I like the idea of a plastic bin, Ive been told that a ten gal is very thin glass making it tricky to drill. I wanted to use a ten because I have the full hood with lights. But that's no biggie.
Would this setup be more reliable if I threw a pump from fuge to sump? Would it have to be the exact same pump as my return? Or could I run a small diverted line from my return pump to the fuge, then back to the sump, so the full DT drain is not going into the fuge? Im just juggeling these options.
Thanks a million everybody!
No no no no neit nada never!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the only place for a pump is from the sump to the highest container.
100% of the higher container that drain to the sump must do it with gravity and overflows.
You will never get pumps balanced out and gravity with overflows is the most reliable and simpliests.

 

[acrylic51]

Originally Posted by beaslbob
http:///forum/post/3271179
You will never get pumps balanced out and gravity with overflows is the most reliable and simpliests.
That's why I stated about fabbing a smaller tank to fit the area perfectly and build the overflow in the work and "T" off your drain line. By "Ting" off your drain line to the smaller 10 gallon container with a "ball" or "gate" valve you can totally control how much flow is actually going into the smaller container so your fear of overflowing would be negated. The additional flow not being fed to the smaller top container will make it's way to the bottom sump as it already does and will be returned back to the display tank. Theoretically your not adding any more flow or drainage from the DT. Your just diverting it.

 

[handbanana]

You guys are really smart.
I have to either draw it out or be physcally working with the materials to figure this stuff out.
I just changed my return from flexible tubieng to pvc so I will put in a gated diversion for the sump!

So thank you! I really look forward to at least messing around with some pipes and acrylic this weekend!

 

[acrylic51]

Nothing I love more then the smell of WeldOn 4

 

[i<3reefs]

No, I don't experience much evaporation surprisingly (suppose this is subjective), and I have a dehumidifier in my filtration room which takes a couple weeks to fill up, a 5 gallon container. I make up 25-30 gallons of water in a rolling brute trash can that I use over 2 weeks, but I thought I would be making much more. I think I've lowered my evaporation partly by having my pvc drains well below the water surface in my tubs. This reduces surface agitation, and I'm guessing helps with that, but I'm not expert, and this was my first attempt at something large.
My stand pipe is in my aquarium, but if I was stacking my tubs, I would have a 2nd in my top tub. This allows gravity to do all the work for the overflow, they are easy to build, and quiet. Google Durso standpipe for the design.

 

[i<3reefs]

Yeah, ball valves would be mandatory for what your wanting to do. You can't ever get the water to work exactly the way you want, but valves allow you to manipulate the flow from your aquarium, or back into your aquarium. They are exactly what you will need to use to be happy.
You should never have water on your floor. The only way that can happen is if your power goes out, and you haven't tested for that to happen. You should have an overflow from your aquarium into your 10g, that uses gravity to overflow into your sump tank. The sump tank will have the pump that flows water back up into your aquarium. Your aquarium should have an overflow, which will predetermine the amount of water that can leave your DT into your refuge/sump system. Your refuge/sump system will need to be able to handle that much water, otherwise you will have an issue. Once you've determined how much water your refuge/sump system will have to hold from your DT, you can determine the water level you have to maintain in your refuge/sump system. Surprisingly overflows really do not allow much water to leave your DT.
After your finished you'll see how easy it actually was to do.
Edit: I guess the other way it could happen would be to have a pump that returned water faster than your DT overflow can handle. That would be a problem.