Pitbulls... Let's have the debate.

pezenfuego

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate#post_3507936
Pez,
I think Pitt bulls have floppy ears, and the owner has them cropped.
Also non-floppy ears is no indication of genetics of the dog to the wild, or the Mexican Chihuahua would be on the same thought line. LOL...I used the smallest little pointy eared dog I could think of to express a point.
The floppy ear thing is true of domesticated wolves which in turn gave rise to dogs. I'm not the least bit surprised that as we have artificially selected dogs, this has broken down. Floppy ears and calm nature are just close on the same line of genetic code. That doesn't mean that they can't be separated, it just makes it more difficult to do. But if you can breed dogs to be 4 times as big as wolves or 1/10th the size, then creating a dog with pointy ears that is kind and a dog with floppy ears that is mean should not be too difficult. It was just a thought I felt worth sharing as it pertains to the idea that behavior, as with appearance, is also determined by genetics.
I might have made a mistake including that bit. It is a lot more interesting than it is useful or relevant.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PEZenfuego http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate#post_3507938
I don't know if that was supposed to be condescending or thought-provoking. I'll treat it as the latter and answer your question with another question:
Is there a genetic correlation between serial killers?
Here comes a question cycle.
Why do serial killers kill people? We can answer the question with nature or nurture. If we pick nurture, then we also need to call into question nature. What caused the parents to treat the child in such a way?
The people that break the cycle are serial killers who were raised by nonrelatives or motivated by actions which were provoked by nonrelatives. Or perhaps the entire situation is epigenetic meaning that some people have a killer gene which is switched on by a traumatic event. We are straying from the topic at hand, but I still feel that picking one side or the other is jumping to conclusions.
I think that the powers that be, have been going around in circles over that very thing for as long as Psychiatrists has been in practice. It remains a mystery because many other people have been just as abused if not more then those who went off the deep end and became seriel killers, and others are the children of killers and wouldn't hurt a fly.
(bringing things back onto topic: There are lots of Pitt bulls who make awesome pets, while others are as mean as can be. As it stands there is no blanket answer why.
 

crimzy

Active Member
There are lots of Pitt bulls who make awesome pets, while others are as mean as can be. As it stands there is no blanket answer why.
I think there is an answer but people, especially pit owners, are hesitant to admit that this is a more dangerous animal than other breeds of dogs. Even Gemmy above, who appeared to be supporting pits, even acknowledged that they have special training needs, (suggesting exactly that the breed is more likely to be aggressive than any other). The numbers aren't an anomaly nor are they really even close... They are overwhelming.
The only real point I've seen from the other sides to blame the owners. That's strange as it seems to imply that other breeds don't have bad owners too.
Even Darth, one of the most opinionated people here, plays coy and not really making an argument but still calling people stupid (reading between the lines).
The argument that other breeds can bite too isn't really persuasive when the instances of them biting are fractions of pits.
It seems their reputation is deserved.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by crimes http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate/20#post_3507971
I think there is an answer but people, especially pit owners, are hesitant to admit that this is a more dangerous animal than other breeds of dogs. Even Gem my above, who appeared to be supporting pits, even acknowledged that they have special training needs, (suggesting exactly that the breed is more likely to be aggressive than any other). The numbers aren't an anomaly nor are they really even close... They are overwhelming.
The only real point I've seen from the other sides to blame the owners. That's strange as it seems to imply that other breeds don't have bad owners too.
Even Darth, one of the most opinionated people here, plays coy and not really making an argument but still calling people stupid (reading between the lines).
The argument that other breeds can bite too isn't really persuasive when the instances of them biting are fractions of pits.
It seems their reputation is deserved.
I think all dogs have special training needs. Just like livestock in this hobby. As a pet owner it's best for the pet and the owner for the owner to know what it wants in a dog and then search out reputable breeders that have a proven history of producing animals with the highest chance of success in getting what you're after. Mixed breeds are harder to judge because sometimes we don't know what all is in there.
But to say that all dogs would act the same would be like saying all humans think, feel or act the same. So there's always a question of what you're going to end up with even when you buy a puppy and train it yourself. If a dog isn't fixed and happens to be running high on hormones then they will likely be more aggressive during those times. Or if they don't feel good or something is not right with them they may not want to be messed with and someones uncontrolled kid running around grabbing it's tail when it's trying to eat is not a wise type of situation to put a kid or a dog in.
My uncle had a Pit that was a rescue from hurricane Katrina. The dog was the meanest nastiest looking thing you ever seen but was nothing but a big baby and a gentle giant. He may have eaten the brick off of the back of my uncles house a few times but he never hurt a soul. Then again we could probably blame a lot of the responsibility on ourselves if one is a parent or a dog owner, both sides of the fence should hopefully not put their kid or their dog in an uncertain situation if you have no idea of what could happen.
The majority of these dog attacks running loose, I mean really, who else can we blame? I'm betting that 95% were dogs purchased in urban or rural areas that we purchased or adopted for the purpose of making them as mean and intimidating as they can and then not keeping up with their responsibility of taking extra precautions to make sure that they don't get out.
Pit's are popular because of their loyalty and devotion to their owners. It almost seems wrong to brand them all as bad when most of them are just doing what they are told because they become what they become mostly because of their strong desire to please their master. Look at the way we train Marines to bring that killer instinct out of them. A friend of mine from high school went off to play in the sand box and when he came back he was forever changed and had violent tendencies. He didn't go off to war like that, he became that way because of what he went through.
On a side note: Chihuahua's are fiercely devoted as well. And my comment earlier was probably out of place because they don't deserve to get a bad rap because they are not understood. My friends adopted one from a lady whose boyfriend was really mean and emotionally abusive. The dog stayed locked in a kennel in a bathroom for 90% of it's life. It was traumatized as you can imagine. That dog would not allow any man to come within 5 feet of my friends wife without turning into devil dog, even her husband. It never made a good family pet but it might have been the perfect pet for someone else. That dog shouldn't have been blamed for what it's been through.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Just too many bad apples in the bunch spoiling it for the lot. I'm trying to find some concrete info but the two most popular dogs down in my area are pits and chihuahuas, IMO. So of corse they catch the majority of the bad reports simply because you don't see as many other breeds. And yes, the majority of them are owned by folks that I would not classify as responsible, productive members of society. So it's a problem for the city.
But this can't account for every situation. You never known if the dog you adopt may turn out to be the next serial killer of the dog world.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemmy http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate/20#post_3507996
Another thing to keep in mind is the majority of dog bites go unreported....
I would be willing to gamble that chihauhau's probably bite more people down here than any other dog. I think they're more aggressive than pits because they are so protective. But seriously...how many people are going to go report that they got tore up by a munchkin? If we had an accurate way to keep track of the numbers I bet they would be a whole lot different.
 

elrodg

Member
Ok. I have worked as a trainer in the past and there is no dog that is more unflinchingly loyal and obedient (if trained properly) than a bully breed. I loved every one I've ever seen. Including the mean ones. (It's not their fault). The sad part is that because of their owners improper handling, or unguided training these dogs have become labeled as man eaters.
 

elrodg

Member
If anyone is considering buying a dog. Any kind of dog. Find a proper trainer in your local area and at least go through an obedience class or two. It only costs about thirty to forty a session and I promise that you will not regret it.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Some of the pit's rep is deserved and some isn't. When they do bite they tend to cause damage, but even if they nip people tend to make a big deal out of it because of the rep. I think bans are stupid but perhaps zero tolerance if your dog is caught off leash would be acceptable. But there are other breeds I would apply that too as well.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/394151/pitbulls-lets-have-the-debate/20#post_3508028
Some of the pit's rep is deserved and some isn't. When they do bite they tend to cause damage, but even if they nip people tend to make a big deal out of it because of the rep. I think bans are stupid but perhaps zero tolerance if your dog is caught off leash would be acceptable. But there are other breeds I would apply that too as well.
Not apposed to regulating access so to speak. Just don't want to see everyone else suffer for someone else's mistake? Hmmm...
Bigger dog = bigger responsibility plain and simple. Too many folks (and I'm probably no saint) don't always put enough thought or care into their decisions. And we can't fix stupid, right? Or can we? I need help. :p
 

reefraff

Active Member
I've always been very proactive about keeping my dogs under control. Not 100 percent successful all the time but it's never been for lack of effort.
 

reefraff

Active Member
He He, Any Idea how I can keep a Beagle from digging into anything that remotely might smell like something to eat? My lab cross is great, I could leave a plate of food on the coffee table and he wouldn't touch it but the Beagle tried to drag stuff off the counters and don't even think about leaving a trash bag where he can find it.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

Even Darth, one of the most opinionated people here, plays coy and not really making an argument but still calling people stupid (reading between the lines).
I wasn't playing coy. I truly didnt want to have to type out the lengthy argument this would bring from me. However I guess I have to. I wasn't calling people stupid. I was calling the discussion and the stigma behind it stupid. I will most likely jump around quite a bit so try to follow as well as possible.
Lets start with the term Pit Bull. Define that. The AKC to my knowledge still does not recognize this as a breed. So if it is not a true breed what designates a dog as a pit bull? The origin of the name came from pit fight with dogs as well as a dog with jaws and body strength powerful enough to bring down Bulls. This is the origin of the name as these were two reasons for their creation/breeding. It has nothing to do with a specific breed in reality. Most "Pit Bull" bans include the following true breeds, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier,, American Bulldog, and some even go so far as to include Boxers, and English Bulldogs. Kind of stupid really, since characteristics between all these breeds are not remotely similar except possibly the jaw make up...but even that is a stretch.
Lets look at some numbers before I delve further into this.
One of the few known instances in which a breed ban’s effectiveness was examined and reported on in the United States occurred in Prince George’s County, Maryland, where a task force was formed in 2003 to look at the effectiveness of its pit bull ban. The task force concluded that the public’s safety had not improved as a result of the ban, despite the fact that the county had spent more than $250,000 per year to round up and destroy banned dogs. Finding that other, non–breed–specific laws already on the books covered vicious animal, nuisance, leash, and other public health and safety concerns, the task force recommended repealing the ban.
In a study looking at dog bite data, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Humane Society of the United States, and the American Veterinary Medical Association together produced a report titled Breeds of Dogs Involved in Fatal Human Attacks in the US between 1979 and 1998.This report appeared in the September 15, 2000, issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. The study stated that during this 20–year period, more than 25 breeds of dogs were involved in 238 human fatalities. Pit bull type dogs caused 66 of the fatalities, which averages out to just over three fatal attacks per year. Rottweilers were cited as causing 39 of the fatalities. The rest were caused by other purebreds and mixed breeds. Some of the breeds listed were Dachshunds, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and even a Yorkshire Terrier were responsible for fatalities.
The media is also very biased when reporting on attacks involving dogs. There was a study done as well during a four day period in 2007 by the National Canine Research Council. During those four days the attacks were tracked and the number of publications reporting these attacks.
On day one, a Labrador mix attacked an elderly man, sending him to the hospital. News stories of his attack appeared in one article in the local paper.
On day two, a mixed–breed dog fatally injured a child. The local paper ran two stories.
On day three, a mixed–breed dog attacked a child, sending him to the hospital. One article ran in the local paper.
On day four, two pit bulls that broke off their chains attacked a woman trying to protect her small dog. She was hospitalized. Her dog was uninjured. This attack was reported in more than 230 articles in national and international newspapers and on the major cable news networks.
So clearly the media already targets a specific breed as it is. Thus everyone hears about it more. This is akin to if the media only reported crime stories involving Native Americans in mass publications and ignored other races for the most part. A very negative view of Native Americans would eventually develop would it not?
To further prove it isnt a breed issue but more an owner issue the following stats were collected by the The National Canine Research Council in 2006.
97 percent of the dogs involved were not spayed or neutered.
84 percent of the attacks involved owners who had abused or neglected their dogs, failed to contain their dogs, or failed to properly chain their dogs.
78 percent of the dogs were not kept as pets but as guard, breeding, or yard dogs.
According to the Humane Society of the United States, the Centers for Disease Control, and the American Veterinary Medical Association, no one dog breed is more likely to bite than others.
A study performed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Humane Society of the United States, analyzed dog bite statistics from the last 20 years and found that the statistics don’t show that any breeds are inherently more dangerous than others. The study showed that the most popular large breed dogs at any one time were consistently on the list of breeds that bit fatally. There were a high number of fatal bites from Doberman pinschers in the 1970s, for example, because Dobermans were very popular at that time and there were more Dobermans around, and because Dobermans’ size makes their bites more dangerous. The number of fatal bites from pit bulls rose in the 1980s for the same reason, and the number of bites from Rottweilers in the 1990s. The study also noted that there are no reliable statistics for nonfatal dog bites, so there is no way to know how often smaller breeds are biting.
Breed specific bans are not a new thing. As just pointed out two other breeds have been looked at closely in recent decades because of one simple reason. Popularity. The more of one type dog, the more bites from that specific breed. It is simple math.
Owning a grooming salon where 25% of my clients own pit bulls I can honestly say none have ever tried to take a bite out of me. The top biting dog in my salon by Breed is the CHOW CHOW (I have been bit by 75% of them, Chihuahua (the only dog to bite me in the face and actually drop me to ground while gushing blood profusely out of my nose, Shih tzus (half of these little crap dogs bite), and cocker spaniels. I would say 25% bite and they always have horrible teeth so infection is a major concern. Don't get me started on stupid cats who also tend to leave infection....
I have heard the floppy ear discussion before. However this holds no water. As most dogs that are classified as pit bulls have their ears docked and thus were born with floppy ears until an operation changed that. Also there are several dogs that do not have floppy ears naturally and are rarely ever involved in any biting incident. Toy Fox Terrier, West Highland White Terrier, Akita, Alaskan Malamute, American Eskimo, Australian Terrier, Basenji, Belgian Malinois, Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Tervuren, Shiba Inu, Boston Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Canaan Dog, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Chihuahua, Chinese Crested, French Bulldog, Ibizan Hound, Keeshond, Norwegian Elkhound, Norwich Terrier, Papillon, Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Pharaoh Hound, Pomeranian, Samoyed, Schipperke, Finnish Spitz, Scottish Terrier, Siberian Husky, Silky Terrier, Skye Terrier, Swedish Vallhund, Yorkshire Terrier. So to say floppy ears or poity ears is an indication does not hold water.
Now I might agree to a correlation with cropped ears assisting in bringing out aggression as this has to affect nerve ending and I have read this can affect some things in a behavioral way, but this is still under study and not conclusive to my knowledge. As I can always bring up the breed of Great Dane to counter act this thought process as well as Schnauzers, boxers, Bouvier de flander, Neopolitan Mastifs, Brussel Griffons, Boston Terriers, Briards as well as a couple other lesser known breeds. But cropping was brought about to keep the floppy ear out of harms ways. as most of these breeds were used in some sort of fighting or defense manner way back when.
Albuquerque has probably one of the highest concentration of Pit Bulls in the country per capita. In the last 3 years we have had four attacks on humans by pit bulls. In the same amount of time we have had three individuals killed by wild dog or local neighborhood packs that did not include pit bulls.
I will stop there as to not flood this post with to much information I am sure most of you have never read before.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
I don't know why, but pit bulls seem to be the dog of choice for gang members and violent people,
And I am sorry this screams ignorance.
 
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