Possible to have LR and LS w/ a wet/dry filter?
- Thread starter reef dude
- Start date
stupid_naso
Member
I'm running my tank like that. Although not with bioballs, it's still wet/dry filter. I have lr and ls. I just started reef and so far it's been great. Why is it not a preferred way?
broomer5
Active Member
stupid_naso
Some folks don't believe having the live rock, live sand AND a wet/dry trickle filter or wet/dry powerfilter is necessary, and thus not a preferred method for biofiltration.
Here's something to think about as an example:
Suppose you have a 100 gallon reef tank, loaded to the hilt with say 125 lbs or premo live rock, and a wonderful live deep sand bed.
The tank's been set up for a year - and has 4 small fish and a ton of corals.
Between all of the surface area of the live rock and sand particles - you'll have most all the bacteria the tank will need to process and convert the ammonia from these fish, and the nitrite too, leaving you with nitrate.
The DSB if done properly should help to take care of reducing your nitrates. The actual test readings may vary - but let's say with that set up - your test's all read zero, or just a hint of nitrate.
What else would you expect the wet/dry to do, besides maybe aerate and move the water somewhat.
You've got the biofiltration being handled by the rock and sandbed.
Now in this same scenerio - hang a wet/dry powerfilter on the back. Now add another, and another, and another ... until you have say a dozen of these powerfilters hanging all around the tank's four walls.
What have you gained ?
You have more biomedia - that was not necessary from the beginning.
The tank is still producing the "same" amounts of ammonia, and now you've got even more biomedia and bacteria to process this "same" level of ammonia.
My thought is that you may be depriving the bacteria in the sandbed and in/on the live rock of the fuels that they need to survive, reproduce and grow. It may be possible to actually have a far less efficient biofiltration system with these additional wet/dry filters - because none of them are fully populated with a healthy population of bacteria - there just isn't enough fuel ( ammonia/nitrite ) to go around. You've "over" filtered this tank to a degree.
The biofiltration system may only be as strong as the amount of fuel feeding it.
You want your greatest numbers of healthy, reproducing bacteria in the rock and sandbed - and by adding the wet/dry to the equation - you may be robbing these bacteria in the tank of the very food they need to live and metabolize the nitrogen compounds.
Wet/dry trickle filters are very good at allowing these beneficial bacteria a "place" to grow, and some feel they may be "too" good, thus not the preferred method - IF you are running the live rock and live DSB as well.
Not so much because the biomedia becomes a so called "nitrate factory" ..... but because you already have adaquate surface area in the rock and sandbed to accomplish what you've set out to do ..... convert nitrogen compounds, ammonia to nitrite, the nitrite to nitrate and hopefully allow the DSB to convert some if not most of the nitrate to nitrogen gas - completing the nitrogen cycle.
Another way to look at it. You've got a group of 6 adult people under one roof, but only enough food a day is available to feed this group of 6, keeping them healthy, happy and active doing some form of work.
Now you add 4 more grown adults to this group, making it a total of 10 people, but still only have the same amount of food to feed the original 6.
You may end up with 10 unhappy, malnoursihed, hungry people, that all become less active, are always hungry, and may become less efficient at doing the work.
This is my view and description of what may happen in a tank such as this, and possibly some other's here as well may agree or disagree.
I'm sure some other folks may be able to explain it in a way that might make more sense too.
Some folks don't believe having the live rock, live sand AND a wet/dry trickle filter or wet/dry powerfilter is necessary, and thus not a preferred method for biofiltration.
Here's something to think about as an example:
Suppose you have a 100 gallon reef tank, loaded to the hilt with say 125 lbs or premo live rock, and a wonderful live deep sand bed.
The tank's been set up for a year - and has 4 small fish and a ton of corals.
Between all of the surface area of the live rock and sand particles - you'll have most all the bacteria the tank will need to process and convert the ammonia from these fish, and the nitrite too, leaving you with nitrate.
The DSB if done properly should help to take care of reducing your nitrates. The actual test readings may vary - but let's say with that set up - your test's all read zero, or just a hint of nitrate.
What else would you expect the wet/dry to do, besides maybe aerate and move the water somewhat.
You've got the biofiltration being handled by the rock and sandbed.
Now in this same scenerio - hang a wet/dry powerfilter on the back. Now add another, and another, and another ... until you have say a dozen of these powerfilters hanging all around the tank's four walls.
What have you gained ?
You have more biomedia - that was not necessary from the beginning.
The tank is still producing the "same" amounts of ammonia, and now you've got even more biomedia and bacteria to process this "same" level of ammonia.
My thought is that you may be depriving the bacteria in the sandbed and in/on the live rock of the fuels that they need to survive, reproduce and grow. It may be possible to actually have a far less efficient biofiltration system with these additional wet/dry filters - because none of them are fully populated with a healthy population of bacteria - there just isn't enough fuel ( ammonia/nitrite ) to go around. You've "over" filtered this tank to a degree.
The biofiltration system may only be as strong as the amount of fuel feeding it.
You want your greatest numbers of healthy, reproducing bacteria in the rock and sandbed - and by adding the wet/dry to the equation - you may be robbing these bacteria in the tank of the very food they need to live and metabolize the nitrogen compounds.
Wet/dry trickle filters are very good at allowing these beneficial bacteria a "place" to grow, and some feel they may be "too" good, thus not the preferred method - IF you are running the live rock and live DSB as well.
Not so much because the biomedia becomes a so called "nitrate factory" ..... but because you already have adaquate surface area in the rock and sandbed to accomplish what you've set out to do ..... convert nitrogen compounds, ammonia to nitrite, the nitrite to nitrate and hopefully allow the DSB to convert some if not most of the nitrate to nitrogen gas - completing the nitrogen cycle.
Another way to look at it. You've got a group of 6 adult people under one roof, but only enough food a day is available to feed this group of 6, keeping them healthy, happy and active doing some form of work.
Now you add 4 more grown adults to this group, making it a total of 10 people, but still only have the same amount of food to feed the original 6.
You may end up with 10 unhappy, malnoursihed, hungry people, that all become less active, are always hungry, and may become less efficient at doing the work.
This is my view and description of what may happen in a tank such as this, and possibly some other's here as well may agree or disagree.
I'm sure some other folks may be able to explain it in a way that might make more sense too.
B
bt_1999_66
Guest
Broomer5 For President.....!
Now that's what I call a good explanation... That's what I love about this place...!
Now that's what I call a good explanation... That's what I love about this place...!
bigeyedfish
Member
broomer,
excellent explanation. one reason i am getting rid of my wet/dry and putting a fuge in hopefully this week.
see if you can explain this though. i have been slowly removing my bio balls so that i dont shock the system. no problems so far except for my nitrate readings. before bio ball removal they measured zero. as i've started to remove them i've seen the nitrate level slowly rise. i've done water changes to keep it under control but any thoughts as to why they would climb? only thing i can think of is that i am dislodging a lot of particles trapped in the bio balls.
excellent explanation. one reason i am getting rid of my wet/dry and putting a fuge in hopefully this week.
see if you can explain this though. i have been slowly removing my bio balls so that i dont shock the system. no problems so far except for my nitrate readings. before bio ball removal they measured zero. as i've started to remove them i've seen the nitrate level slowly rise. i've done water changes to keep it under control but any thoughts as to why they would climb? only thing i can think of is that i am dislodging a lot of particles trapped in the bio balls.
broomer5
Active Member
Wow SaltyJay18 - that's a tough one.
Making me put my thinking cap on for sure over here.
I suppose the nitrate reading could be going up some after you remove some of the bioballs - but I'm trying hard to figure out just why.
That's assuming the nitrate is somewhat "trapped" on the surface of the bioballs ( along with the bacteria ) and you inadvertantly "knocked" some of this chemical compound off as you disturbed the packed tower of plastic balls, maybe upsetting a balance at that time? Or the bioballs were filthy dirty with trapped detritus - and it was released back into the tank. But that doesn't make much sense to me - it was in the tank water system anyways.
Just releasing it into the water may or may not cause an increase in nitrates. But it is the WATER we test - and if more trapped junk got into the water - you would certainly show a positive test for it when testing this water - maybe.
First though, before jumping to a conclusion that this could even be a possibility - maybe we should look at this:
If we look at the chemicals that we've been discussing - as purely a chemical structure, we see that:
Ammonia is a 1 nitrogen atom with 3 hydrogen atoms - written as NH3
Nitrite is 1 nitrogen atom with 2 oxygen atoms written as NO2 ( the ammonia has been oxidized by the bateria now )
Nitrate is 1 nitrogen atom with 3 oxygen atoms written as NO3.
So we have this chemical compound Nitrate NO3 in our tanks. It's a chemical compound - and such would most likely exist all over the inside of the tank. Some is floating around in the water that we test, some is in the sandbed, some is on the live rock, on the glass .... etc.
My question since I don't know - is does this nitrate hang around the bacteria colony after it's been produced ? In other words, you have a slimey coating of bacteria all over the bioballs. As nitrite in the water "trickles" over these bacteria with lots of oxygen present, these bacteria "oxidize" some of this nitrite into nitrate.
Then where does the nitrate go afterwards ?
Does the slimy mass of bacteria sluff off all of this nitrate back into the water ?
Does some of the nitrate "stick" to the bioballs, or get trapped withing the slimy mess?
Does it take on another form and adhere to the surface of the plastic ?
Does removing some of these bioballs mean that the nitrate that was once being coverted by these bioballs now has to hang out on or around the bacteria on the sandbed or live rock up in the tank now from where it was produced, or does it just get released back into the water and float around in there ?
I sure don't know the answer - only typing out loud here.
These nitrate compounds are in solution - in the water - we know this for sure cause we test the WATER.
I wonder if I was to scrape off some of the slimy stuff from a bioball, and add this to some of the tank water in my test vial - then do a nitrate test on this combined water and slimy stuff - if I would find there to be MORE nitrate in this test, compared to just testing the tankwater ???
Again - I don't know - never tried it - but I might on my 30 gallon. I still have a handful of bioballs on that tank.
The other thing I now think of is that it may be coincidence - and that you are getting some accumulated nitrate readings now - "coincidentally" along the same timeframe as you began to remove some of the bioballs.
And that this may have occured anyways - even if you left the bioballs in place.
Could be that too - could be ?
One last thing - I doubt very much that there is much denitrifying bacteria present on the surface or nooks & crannies of a bioball. It just doesn't seem possible to me. This would rule out a loss of these anerobic bacteria that may have been converting some of the nitrate to N2 nitrogen gas, which could lead to an increase in nitrates too. Sort of the main reason some of don't really like using this form of biofiltration as our ONLY method in the first place.
So I just don't know SaltyJay18.
Maybe someone else here can explain this one.
Making me put my thinking cap on for sure over here.
I suppose the nitrate reading could be going up some after you remove some of the bioballs - but I'm trying hard to figure out just why.
That's assuming the nitrate is somewhat "trapped" on the surface of the bioballs ( along with the bacteria ) and you inadvertantly "knocked" some of this chemical compound off as you disturbed the packed tower of plastic balls, maybe upsetting a balance at that time? Or the bioballs were filthy dirty with trapped detritus - and it was released back into the tank. But that doesn't make much sense to me - it was in the tank water system anyways.
Just releasing it into the water may or may not cause an increase in nitrates. But it is the WATER we test - and if more trapped junk got into the water - you would certainly show a positive test for it when testing this water - maybe.
First though, before jumping to a conclusion that this could even be a possibility - maybe we should look at this:
If we look at the chemicals that we've been discussing - as purely a chemical structure, we see that:
Ammonia is a 1 nitrogen atom with 3 hydrogen atoms - written as NH3
Nitrite is 1 nitrogen atom with 2 oxygen atoms written as NO2 ( the ammonia has been oxidized by the bateria now )
Nitrate is 1 nitrogen atom with 3 oxygen atoms written as NO3.
So we have this chemical compound Nitrate NO3 in our tanks. It's a chemical compound - and such would most likely exist all over the inside of the tank. Some is floating around in the water that we test, some is in the sandbed, some is on the live rock, on the glass .... etc.
My question since I don't know - is does this nitrate hang around the bacteria colony after it's been produced ? In other words, you have a slimey coating of bacteria all over the bioballs. As nitrite in the water "trickles" over these bacteria with lots of oxygen present, these bacteria "oxidize" some of this nitrite into nitrate.
Then where does the nitrate go afterwards ?
Does the slimy mass of bacteria sluff off all of this nitrate back into the water ?
Does some of the nitrate "stick" to the bioballs, or get trapped withing the slimy mess?
Does it take on another form and adhere to the surface of the plastic ?
Does removing some of these bioballs mean that the nitrate that was once being coverted by these bioballs now has to hang out on or around the bacteria on the sandbed or live rock up in the tank now from where it was produced, or does it just get released back into the water and float around in there ?
I sure don't know the answer - only typing out loud here.
These nitrate compounds are in solution - in the water - we know this for sure cause we test the WATER.
I wonder if I was to scrape off some of the slimy stuff from a bioball, and add this to some of the tank water in my test vial - then do a nitrate test on this combined water and slimy stuff - if I would find there to be MORE nitrate in this test, compared to just testing the tankwater ???
Again - I don't know - never tried it - but I might on my 30 gallon. I still have a handful of bioballs on that tank.
The other thing I now think of is that it may be coincidence - and that you are getting some accumulated nitrate readings now - "coincidentally" along the same timeframe as you began to remove some of the bioballs.
And that this may have occured anyways - even if you left the bioballs in place.
Could be that too - could be ?
One last thing - I doubt very much that there is much denitrifying bacteria present on the surface or nooks & crannies of a bioball. It just doesn't seem possible to me. This would rule out a loss of these anerobic bacteria that may have been converting some of the nitrate to N2 nitrogen gas, which could lead to an increase in nitrates too. Sort of the main reason some of don't really like using this form of biofiltration as our ONLY method in the first place.
So I just don't know SaltyJay18.
Maybe someone else here can explain this one.
jalso
New Member
I am only starting to research setting a reef up, so I currently have no experience, but want to start engaging in discussions to test my understanding and knowledge of the subject.
Broomer, in your earlier post you explained that by overloading the system with more bacteria than the food supply can support, the bacteria will be less efficient and unhealthy.
Could it be possible that under these conditions, that some of the bacteria in the system would die off - essentially mother nature balancing the system so that demand(bacteria) == supply(ammonia)??
If so, where would the majority of the remaining bacteria choose to inhabit, the tank or the W D filter??
What may be happening here is that a significant portion of the bacteria in the system is still living in the W D filter (possibly due to friendlier conditions, less chance of being devoured, etc). By removing bio-balls, you are putting the system out of balance, more supply than demand.
It is likely that if you have enough live rock and live sand, that the bacteria population in the tank will increase over time to rebalance the system, essentially replacing the bacteria that was removed when you removed the bio balls.
What I would do is simply wait and see if after removing some bio-balls, if the system rebalances itself out, and if so, remove a few more balls, wait, repeat, untill all the balls have been yanked.
Again, I'm no expert at this, I dont even have a tank yet, but am working un understanding the things I need to know before jumping in, and I might be completely off base. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanx.
Broomer, in your earlier post you explained that by overloading the system with more bacteria than the food supply can support, the bacteria will be less efficient and unhealthy.
Could it be possible that under these conditions, that some of the bacteria in the system would die off - essentially mother nature balancing the system so that demand(bacteria) == supply(ammonia)??
If so, where would the majority of the remaining bacteria choose to inhabit, the tank or the W D filter??
What may be happening here is that a significant portion of the bacteria in the system is still living in the W D filter (possibly due to friendlier conditions, less chance of being devoured, etc). By removing bio-balls, you are putting the system out of balance, more supply than demand.
It is likely that if you have enough live rock and live sand, that the bacteria population in the tank will increase over time to rebalance the system, essentially replacing the bacteria that was removed when you removed the bio balls.
What I would do is simply wait and see if after removing some bio-balls, if the system rebalances itself out, and if so, remove a few more balls, wait, repeat, untill all the balls have been yanked.
Again, I'm no expert at this, I dont even have a tank yet, but am working un understanding the things I need to know before jumping in, and I might be completely off base. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanx.
barracuda
Active Member
Guys, this is actually my problem. I have a 110 gal tank with a lot of LR. Also i have a big sump with w/d filter. I currently have no DSB, only crushed corals (bad thing). Tank is loaded with 10 turbo snails, 2 anemones, 5 shrimps, 2 small damsels and 1 small leather coral. I cannot get rid of nitrites. it's about 0.1-0.2 ppm. Tank was cycling for a 2 month. Maybe the problem is the w/d filter? What's gonna happen if i'll put out the drip tray?
Dima.
Dima.
barracuda
Active Member
Guys, this is actually my problem. I have a 110 gal tank with a lot of LR. Also i have a big sump with w/d filter. I currently have no DSB, only crushed corals (bad thing). Tank is loaded with 10 turbo snails, 2 anemones, 5 shrimps, 2 small damsels and 1 small leather coral. I cannot get rid of nitrites. it's about 0.1-0.2 ppm. Tank was cycling for a 2 month. Maybe the problem is the w/d filter? What's gonna happen if i'll put out the drip tray?
Dima.
Dima.
bigeyedfish
Member
jalso,
i think you have it backwards. if there was less bacteria then there would be an increase in the initial compounds ammonia and nitrite. however thats not the case. i have no signs of those so i know my bacteria are doing the job. I do have about 65 lbs of LR, not a signifcant sand bed. however i feel i have plenty of live rock to support my bio load thats why the bio balls are going bye bye.
Broomer,
Only thing i can think of is that i had a lot of waste trapped in there and i shook it loose when i started taking some of the balls out. then it got decomposed by the remaining balls and has now shown up as nitrates. who knows i'll keep an eye on it. As long as its not ammonia i wont be as worried. with the new fuge going in this week (MAYBE TONIGHT!!!! <img src="graemlins//eek.gif" border="0" alt="[eek]" /> ) i dont want any surprises or shakeups
thanks for the help guys
Jason
i think you have it backwards. if there was less bacteria then there would be an increase in the initial compounds ammonia and nitrite. however thats not the case. i have no signs of those so i know my bacteria are doing the job. I do have about 65 lbs of LR, not a signifcant sand bed. however i feel i have plenty of live rock to support my bio load thats why the bio balls are going bye bye.
Broomer,
Only thing i can think of is that i had a lot of waste trapped in there and i shook it loose when i started taking some of the balls out. then it got decomposed by the remaining balls and has now shown up as nitrates. who knows i'll keep an eye on it. As long as its not ammonia i wont be as worried. with the new fuge going in this week (MAYBE TONIGHT!!!! <img src="graemlins//eek.gif" border="0" alt="[eek]" /> ) i dont want any surprises or shakeups
thanks for the help guys
Jason
bigeyedfish
Member
well the sump/fuge isnt going to get done tonight. missing a hose bib reducer and some cable ties. unfortunately my Lowe's isnt open this late. Home Depot doesnt have them for some reason. Oh well tomorrow night i should be done!!! will let everyone know of my success or failure.
kris
Member
This is so much FUN!!!
Anyway here's my guess (very slightly educated)
First to Jalso--I think removing only a few balls at a time is a good idea. Wait then for your tank to readjust, almost like a cycle period.
Broomer-Adressing your questions about where the nitrates go--well obviously they are SUPPOSED to get converted to gas, but as we all know, not all systems can do this all the way.
So where do the unconverted trates go you ask?? Well I think you may very well be right that they do hang out around the colonies that turned them into what they are. So if it was the bio-balls job to convert trites to trates then what didn't move on to gas simply continued to build around this media (remember the old saying about all bio-filter media being "trate factories") After time I think these trates will take on a semi-solid form hence the "slimy mass".
Naturally I too am giving my best guesses.
Moving right along
SaltyJay-I totally believe your increase in trates is due to the removal of the media and disruption of the system as a whole. While I do not run a w/d, I have experience with canisters and here's how they may be similar. Once, after cleaning the canister and restarting I had to reprime it and a bunch of "stuff" (slimy massy kind of stuff) was backwashed into the tank. While it not take long for the tank to clear--I was very concerned about what had happened so I monitored my levels for a about a week. Before a water change my trates run approx at 25-30 with all other params at 0, afterwards trates approx 20. After this particular change I had a trace of ammo. Within 2 days the ammo was gone but I had trates in the 60s. By the end of the week I performed another change and all was right again, but obviously that backwash of slimy stuff had a dramatic impact on the tank.
Anyway here's my guess (very slightly educated)
First to Jalso--I think removing only a few balls at a time is a good idea. Wait then for your tank to readjust, almost like a cycle period.
Broomer-Adressing your questions about where the nitrates go--well obviously they are SUPPOSED to get converted to gas, but as we all know, not all systems can do this all the way.
So where do the unconverted trates go you ask?? Well I think you may very well be right that they do hang out around the colonies that turned them into what they are. So if it was the bio-balls job to convert trites to trates then what didn't move on to gas simply continued to build around this media (remember the old saying about all bio-filter media being "trate factories") After time I think these trates will take on a semi-solid form hence the "slimy mass".
Naturally I too am giving my best guesses.
Moving right along
SaltyJay-I totally believe your increase in trates is due to the removal of the media and disruption of the system as a whole. While I do not run a w/d, I have experience with canisters and here's how they may be similar. Once, after cleaning the canister and restarting I had to reprime it and a bunch of "stuff" (slimy massy kind of stuff) was backwashed into the tank. While it not take long for the tank to clear--I was very concerned about what had happened so I monitored my levels for a about a week. Before a water change my trates run approx at 25-30 with all other params at 0, afterwards trates approx 20. After this particular change I had a trace of ammo. Within 2 days the ammo was gone but I had trates in the 60s. By the end of the week I performed another change and all was right again, but obviously that backwash of slimy stuff had a dramatic impact on the tank.
broomer5
Active Member
Good points everyone !
The search for the truth goes on.
I plan to do some testing over the weekend.
I'm going to try and see if I can get some nitrate numbers - that will at least help me to understand my situation over here.
I want to test the water alone.
The stuff on the bioballs mixed with some saltwater from the tank.
The same stuff on the bioballs mixed with some RO/DI water.
And maybe pull a sample of water from the sandbed as well.
I'll test for nitrates of my RO/DI water first to establish a baseline for my following tests.
Then I'll repeat each test to confirm the first.
I'm sure this won't be a perfect "scientific" set of tests, but I will try and practice "good" testing procedures and hope to reduce any chances of cross contamination or stupid mistakes that could lead to errors.
Who knows ....
I may be wasting my time, wasting tests or expecting something that I may not even find.
Then again ........ I dunno yet
The search for the truth goes on.
I plan to do some testing over the weekend.
I'm going to try and see if I can get some nitrate numbers - that will at least help me to understand my situation over here.
I want to test the water alone.
The stuff on the bioballs mixed with some saltwater from the tank.
The same stuff on the bioballs mixed with some RO/DI water.
And maybe pull a sample of water from the sandbed as well.
I'll test for nitrates of my RO/DI water first to establish a baseline for my following tests.
Then I'll repeat each test to confirm the first.
I'm sure this won't be a perfect "scientific" set of tests, but I will try and practice "good" testing procedures and hope to reduce any chances of cross contamination or stupid mistakes that could lead to errors.
Who knows ....
I may be wasting my time, wasting tests or expecting something that I may not even find.
Then again ........ I dunno yet
broomer5
Active Member
ksujason
No I wouldn't just say that without knowing more about your set up.
If you bought the wet/dry for your "primary" biofiltraion - then you'll need it.
If you have or plan to have a DSB deep sand bed and a LOT of live rock - and are going reef - then you may not need the bioballs.
Aggressive tank with no corals and messy eaters - you may still need the wet/dry.
It all sort of depends on what you are planning to do, what kind of tank/critters you want to keep and what your tank water readings are "after" you have everything set up, stabalized over a few months and what happens as the tank matures.
No I wouldn't just say that without knowing more about your set up.
If you bought the wet/dry for your "primary" biofiltraion - then you'll need it.
If you have or plan to have a DSB deep sand bed and a LOT of live rock - and are going reef - then you may not need the bioballs.
Aggressive tank with no corals and messy eaters - you may still need the wet/dry.
It all sort of depends on what you are planning to do, what kind of tank/critters you want to keep and what your tank water readings are "after" you have everything set up, stabalized over a few months and what happens as the tank matures.