post for Acrylic

monsinour

Active Member
Well, i have been unemployed for a long time and my compensation is about to run out. So, what tools do I have to have to attempt to start making sumps for other people? I know that patience is not really a physical tool, but I know I will need it. Also, how much time would I need to come down there and watch/assist you make one so I can get an idea of wtf I am doing.
Its been a thought in my head for a while. Since I cant get a job, why not try to sell something. I think one or 2 of the LFS's would sell what I make.
So basically, what tools do I need, what gear (chemicals like glue and stripper and whatnot) should I have, and where can I go to get the stuff you work with?
 

scsinet

Active Member
I know I'm not Shawn, but I can probably post information he'd agree with...
The single biggest thing you need is a nearby, plentiful supply of cell cast acrylic. If you have to pay to ship the stuff or the place nearby charges an arm and a leg, you'll eat into your profits real quick. You can buy it online through US Plastics, etc, but shipping will eat you alive.
The other consumables you'll need is Weld-On #3 and #16. #16 is really not something you want to be reaching for however if you are building sumps professionally. Also, you'll want a small tiny funnel and a number of plasticator needle applicators to apply the cement. These items can all be obtained from Tap Plastics or US Plastics (the latter sells their house brand of acrylic cement, but it's the same stuff as #3)
For tools, when I build sumps and other such equipment, I am usually using:
- Speed Squares
- Blue painters tape
- Router
- Router table
- 1/4" laminate trim bit
- Lots and lots and lots of clamps
- Table Saw (you need a quality fence, cheapo tabetop saws are unacceptable IMO)
- Miter Saw
- Fine tooth laminate blades for both, replaced regularly.
- Propane torch
- Drill Press
- Forstener Bits
- Hole Saws
- Occasionally, thread taps for both screw threads and NPT
It's probably worth mentioning that in a slow economy where many folks are out of work, you probably won't find a lot of interest in people buying sumps... probably not enough to sustain yourself.
 

monsinour

Active Member
This may be true about the sustainability, but it will give me something to do while I look for jobs.
Are all of those big, expensive tools really needed? I dont have a a table saw, router, or drill press as I am not a typical man with a garage full of tools. Heck, even my basement is not full of tools. I am sure I could go out and get the small stuff, but I dont think I could go and get the big stuff.
 

slice

Active Member
I am almost to the point of needing a second job to finance my habit.
So far, I've only come up with this:

Seriously, though, I wish you the best for finding employment, and SOON.
 

monsinour

Active Member
OMG!!!! Thats me right out side the bank. I was in there asking for a loan. The sign originally said, "Hey buddy, can ya spare a million?"
 

scsinet

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsinour http:///forum/thread/382146/post-for-acrylic#post_3333052
This may be true about the sustainability, but it will give me something to do while I look for jobs.
Are all of those big, expensive tools really needed? I dont have a a table saw, router, or drill press as I am not a typical man with a garage full of tools. Heck, even my basement is not full of tools. I am sure I could go out and get the small stuff, but I dont think I could go and get the big stuff.
Well, without a router, I don't know how you are going to cut teeth for overflows and spillways. Without a table saw, I don't know how you are going to achieve straight, square cuts.
While you may be able to cut functional teeth with a dremel or by hand, or you may be able to cut panels with a circular saw, for example, your fit and finish will suffer at best, and the integrity of the build will be a problem at worst.
Take the teeth... if you don't have a router (I use a router table, but it can be done with just a router with enough care), you'll need to cut teeth via some other means, and it will be incredibly difficult to produce professional looking results.
The panels are the real problem. IMO a table saw is needed to create perfectly square and straight edges. Again, this may be possible with a inexpensive table top saw, but because of the way acrylic joinery works, square and true edges are critical. If you do not achieve this, your joints will look like crap, and while they may hold water initially, they are likely to fail down the road. I use a cabinet saw with a biesemeyer fence to ensure accuracy. Melev (Godfather of sumps if you don't know) even goes so far as to use a jointer to further true up the edges.
You can make due without the miter saw and drill press.
Apart from those two, that's a pretty basic list of tools you need to do acrylic fabrication well. Since you're planning on selling your products, fit and finish make a big difference. Shoddy acrylic work is readily apparent... bad or even imperfect seams, cement splashes, uneven teeth, etc will all stick out like a sore thumb to a buyer. While you may be able to design your sumps around the limitations of your tools, the real money is in building made-to-order sumps. Partner up wtih an LFS and they'll refer high dollar clients that require a special sump design to fit a built-in application and you'll make a buttload of money, but you need to have the tools to build whatever they want or they'll move on.
I don't want to discourage anyone though... my advice is to work with a buddy who has some of these tools. If you don't know anyone, check out pawn shops or ebay. Often, industrial auctions yield incredible buys. My father in law bought a gigantic 7.5hp sliding table saw from an industrial auction for an incredible deal. If nothing else (and I mean if nothing else because I do not advocate buying cheap tools), buy inexpensive tools... instead of that high dollar Bosch router, buy a Skil. Get a cheap table top saw for now. Funnel the profits from your first two builds into better tools...
 

al&burke

Active Member
+1 - you have to remember the sheet of acrylic are very large and heavy, you can't just cut them on a rinking dinky saw, I don't have the best saw but I have high quality blades and a good support table around my saw, improves accuracy and safer. I would show you a picture of my shop but it is a mess right now. And please do not get discouraged, you are a good guy, you will figure something out.
 

monsinour

Active Member
I am not discouraged in the slightest. I just know that some of these tools are needed and this is more for the missus to see what all is needed. I know that she will say that I have to clean the basement first before anything is purchased. I do have to have an area to work in right? Besides, I wouldnt start doing anything until I could see someone do this first. Since Acrylic is close to me, I would go there. Sorry Al, I dont have a passport to get into Canada. I used to cross over on a regular basis into Windsor before 9/11. Good lord that is a good party town!
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
That's a tough business to get into there with hopes of making money. I wouldn't wish to discourage anybody from doing something they really wanted to do but building quality sumps/tanks is a bit of an art which takes time to devolop the necissary skills to make it happen. Alot of guys do it more because it's simply something that they are passionate about. Pluss there could be liability involved. I'm sure Shawn would agree that even though he makes it look easy it still requires an experienced hand in order to pull it off cleanly. I had kicked around the same idea and still have been to some extent. I think if I were looking to make a little extra money I'd probably lean towards making custom stands. Wood is a little more forgiving and cheaper to work with in most cases. Heaven forbid you make a boo boo cut in a $400 sheet of acrylic.
I'd say a half way descent table saw, router and table, drill, clamps, bits, blades and torch could get you started. As well as the necissary applicators for the adhesive and polishing supplies. Don't forget the safety glasses.
 

flower

Well-Known Member

Hey if you can work acrylic you can make more than sumps. Custom containers for example and covers for art work just to mention a few off the top of my head....the market would be endless on what you could do. It really is a matter of marketing yourself so folks would know you are out there. Craft shows and the like would be a good place to start.
 

acrylic51

Active Member
I agree with all said, but have a few add on's.... Double sided tape is a must IMHO... Alot of times clamps get in the way when routing and the tape is incredible.... A good fence on the table saw. Material thickness can bog a weak saw down, but for what your initial plans are you can find a decent saw at Home Depot or Lowes. I actually don't own a full size table saw or panel saw, but as mentioned earlier the weight is an issue, and good cuts your pieces need supported. What I did was build my contractor saw into a full size work table/bench. The saw mounted on 1 end and table is 4' wide by 8' long so can handle a full sheet easily, plus I have roller supports I can put at the end of the table as well.
You need a good, stable flat work area.... Your cuts could be perfect but a poor work surface joints look like crap!!!! My big saw table serves that purpose as well. Drill press and miter are optional although I own both, but rarely use my miter unless making quick rough cuts. Probably the biggest or most important tool IMHO is a good router with good/sharp bits. Use your bits only for acrylic. Don't use on other materials. I own several different routers, and there are some good ones. I prefer Freud, but can be expensive. I find myself using my Porter Cable the most. Minimum HP would be 2 1/2hp. Flush trim bits are a must.... Straight bits, and roundovers are musts IMHO.... Rigid actually makes a nice router as well. I also like to keep my laminate router handy as well. Not a must have, but is light weight an compact.
For most work I prefer WeldOn 4. 3 I a litte quicker. 16 I try like the dickens to stay away from....Al will tell you!!!!!LoL. Another is WeldOn 40 which I more for tank building but expensive and needs a totally different applicator. Lots of needles as SCSInet mentioned. I am known to take my lighter to a tip if it's clogged, but it's hard on them over time. The cheap plastic squares for glue up are a must or some sort of squaring jig.
Patience is critical and lots of practice and scrap material... Everyone develops a trick or way that works for them..... Practice, and edge prep work is key to a good, clean joint.
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Monsinour your always welcomed!!!!! You would have a very good idea in a weekend easily, but practice is what will make you comfortable......I still learn new tricks from everyone out there.... It all comes down to how bad do you want it and willing to give. My wife would tell you she could divorce me, and they only thing, I'd worry about are my tools. Nothing better than the smell o routed acrylic or a joint just glued!!!!!!
Start looking at tools, and make small purchases at a time. I' rather save a bit for a good tool, than waste money and buy several junk pieces. Certain things you could get no name...drill press from Harbor Freight bench top model pretty cheap but works. Squares are cheap and you'll grind the end off anyways, to make it easy. Actually acrylic saw blades you would squirm in your seat when you see prices, but if you look at Freud they have a good selection. If needed I could copy there blade list they laminated for me and send you a copy!!!! A good saw fence, and a good router fence as well. I have been using a cheap router table and have been tossing around the idea of mounting my router to my work table. I'm also going to break down and buy the nice Freud router fence..... I'll post a pic whenever I can escape work....
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Freud are awesome blades
When I was manager of the Hardware Dept in a Home Depot in MN I got an idea froma Freud rep.
I took a 7 1/4" 40T blade and ripped a 2x4 lenghtwise that had 100 nails pounded in it in 8'
Then I made a sandwich out of two pieces of 3/4" plywood with a piece of acrylic in between and I screwed it together so it couldn't move while i cut it.
Then i cut at a 45 degree and into the sandwich, but not all the way through, i only went deep enough to go through the top layer of plywood, the layer of acrylic and about 1/4" of the way through the bottom layer of plywood.
What the demonstartion was showing was
1.) blade longevity, still perfectly sharp after ripping through 100 16 penny nails
2.) the reason i didn't go through the last piece of pluywood was this is hard on a normal blade due to heat buildup when the blade isn't allowed to clear the surface of all the stuff your cutting.
3.) the point of the scrylic was to show lack of heat, had there been any significany heat the acrylic would have melted and smeared accross the face of the cup plywood, but there was no smearing.
Neat little tool to sell alot of blades.
Shortly after that I had the #1 Freud sales in the entire company and my store want even very big.
Ok, back to our regularly scheduled thread....
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Monsinour!!!!! Do you have a WoodCraft near you? If you do go there and browse. You'll be drooling all over the place. Leave your credit cards at home. It would give you an idea of top of the line equipment and you can comparison shop there features against the box stores.
Another tool I love which isn't a must have, bent when you get totally serious is an acrylic heater. You use these heaters to bend acrylic instead of piecing material together. You guy are making me think about my Ca reactor I started awhile ago!!!!
 

monsinour

Active Member
Its an idea and probably wont happen due to $. My family doesnt have much but we have lots of ideas. If we had $ to go forth with some of the ideas we have had, we would be running several businesses.
I have a friend in the welding business and he has lots of tools. If I wanted to get into this seriously, I would go live with him for a while and try to make things in his garage. But I would probably have to make the new grooming van work first as it is still not working and its been well over a year in the build process. He wants me to come down there and help finish it but I have 2 kids to take care of when the wife is out working.
Its an idea thats kicking around and I have lots of time to act on it. Thanks for all the advice and information.
 
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