problems with crushed coral?
- Thread starter khill
- Start date
T
thomas712
Guest
Some people do have success with crushed coral...I didn't. It depeneds on what kind of bio load you have, your maintanence routine, feeding, what type of tank you are keeping. What I figured out about crushed coral vs. sand is below.
Most of us will not use crushed coral because it is a large substrate that traps the fish waste and uneaten food that has to be vacuumed before it creates nitrates, which it will anyway. Crushed coral does not provide a very good biological zone, and many tanks are setup with CC from the get go through lack of knowledge or because it is the only substrate that an LFS sells and tells you that it is all you need, using a selling point of CC has buffering power. I have personally battled nitrates over 100 ppm during my days of CC and UGF doing frequent large water changes. So many of us have been there and had high nitrates, did a water change to lower them and they were back in a couple of days. CC has sharp edges, which is undesirable for inverts, like anemones walking around, pods or worms. No getting around it CC is high maintenance and can lead to poor water quality, frequent maintenance, sick livestock, algae blooms and more.
Sand on the other hand has more benefits. These include having far more surface area thereby making it able to handle a higher bio load of bacteria. It is less dangerous to your infauna and has a more natural look in the tank. If going with a DSB Deep Sand Bed you can have other benefits as well like finishing the denitrification or providing sand sifting, burrowing, or tunneling fish and critters a place to play. The denitrification process predominantly occurs in deeper substrates and in areas of stagnant flow where oxygen levels are depressed. And this is why deep sand beds are effective as a nitrogen export mechanism. As water slowly diffuses deeper, aerobic organisms strip all available oxygen for respiration. In the deep, oxygen-deprived layers, denitrifying anaerobes are given the opportunity to convert nitrogen compounds into nitrogenous gases, which escape via tiny bubble out of the aquarium. I believe this process can also work on a limited basis in shallow sand beds. My sand bed is no more than 2 inches deep in some spots.
Most of us will not use crushed coral because it is a large substrate that traps the fish waste and uneaten food that has to be vacuumed before it creates nitrates, which it will anyway. Crushed coral does not provide a very good biological zone, and many tanks are setup with CC from the get go through lack of knowledge or because it is the only substrate that an LFS sells and tells you that it is all you need, using a selling point of CC has buffering power. I have personally battled nitrates over 100 ppm during my days of CC and UGF doing frequent large water changes. So many of us have been there and had high nitrates, did a water change to lower them and they were back in a couple of days. CC has sharp edges, which is undesirable for inverts, like anemones walking around, pods or worms. No getting around it CC is high maintenance and can lead to poor water quality, frequent maintenance, sick livestock, algae blooms and more.
Sand on the other hand has more benefits. These include having far more surface area thereby making it able to handle a higher bio load of bacteria. It is less dangerous to your infauna and has a more natural look in the tank. If going with a DSB Deep Sand Bed you can have other benefits as well like finishing the denitrification or providing sand sifting, burrowing, or tunneling fish and critters a place to play. The denitrification process predominantly occurs in deeper substrates and in areas of stagnant flow where oxygen levels are depressed. And this is why deep sand beds are effective as a nitrogen export mechanism. As water slowly diffuses deeper, aerobic organisms strip all available oxygen for respiration. In the deep, oxygen-deprived layers, denitrifying anaerobes are given the opportunity to convert nitrogen compounds into nitrogenous gases, which escape via tiny bubble out of the aquarium. I believe this process can also work on a limited basis in shallow sand beds. My sand bed is no more than 2 inches deep in some spots.
pmcrazi
Member
thanks for the thread khill, and to Thomas for the info... I was wondering the same myself, and my LFS originally had me go with 1/2 cc and 1/2 ls that came in a bag. That was 1 year ago, and now of course all the cc is on top. I use my gravel syphon to take the water from the bottom and get rid of any waste at the bottom. Am I doing them wrong? How do you do water changes with sand, wouldn't the syphon just suck the sand up? I am dealing with alot of green hair algae, and have been reading these threads like crazy trying to get rid of it. Someone had mentioned that CC might cause more algae blooms. Any clues??
Karen
PS is an "algae blenny the same as a lawnmower blenny"??
Karen
PS is an "algae blenny the same as a lawnmower blenny"??
T
thomas712
Guest
pmcrazi
Simply put in many cases using a combination of CC and Sand they wind up being counter productive. The crused coral will still rise to the top like you have found out, and it will still need to be vaccumed, because it will still trap waste and foul your water. Most find that combining the two also looks poor as a substrate.
Sand does not need to be vaccumed at all. All you need with sand is some good water flow to keep the ditritus in suspension so that it can be filtered out of the water or processed by a Deep sandbed. To do a water change on a tank with sandbed all you have to do is the water change, you do not need to vaccum a sandbed, ever. You may if it is neccesary suck up some of the very top of the sandbed carefully to remove larger particals or waste that collects in a certain area, but if you have waste that is collecting then you need to increase the flow of water.
I had years ago a 55 gallon tank with about 3 inches of crushed coral, tons of nitrates due to the collection of waste in it. Any time I vaccumed it was like sucking up mud from the CC. Algae blooms, cyno blooms all sorts of problems unless I vaccumed heavy and did large scale water changes. Now I use sand, never have to vaccum and have far less problems than I used to. My system has evolved much as well like adding a 55 gallon refugium/filtration tank, the added volume of water has helped stablize my 90 gallon main tank, but the same can be done on any tank.
My only advise is to switch to some type of aragonite sand of at least 2 inches.
Remove manually as much of the hair algae as you can, including using a toothbrush to scrub it off, use a stiff one for tank only.
Check for nitrates and phosphates
Use a phosphate remover if necessary
and do several weekly water changes using RO/DI water.
Check to make sure that your lights are not to old or of improper spectrum.
Good luck
Simply put in many cases using a combination of CC and Sand they wind up being counter productive. The crused coral will still rise to the top like you have found out, and it will still need to be vaccumed, because it will still trap waste and foul your water. Most find that combining the two also looks poor as a substrate.
Sand does not need to be vaccumed at all. All you need with sand is some good water flow to keep the ditritus in suspension so that it can be filtered out of the water or processed by a Deep sandbed. To do a water change on a tank with sandbed all you have to do is the water change, you do not need to vaccum a sandbed, ever. You may if it is neccesary suck up some of the very top of the sandbed carefully to remove larger particals or waste that collects in a certain area, but if you have waste that is collecting then you need to increase the flow of water.
I had years ago a 55 gallon tank with about 3 inches of crushed coral, tons of nitrates due to the collection of waste in it. Any time I vaccumed it was like sucking up mud from the CC. Algae blooms, cyno blooms all sorts of problems unless I vaccumed heavy and did large scale water changes. Now I use sand, never have to vaccum and have far less problems than I used to. My system has evolved much as well like adding a 55 gallon refugium/filtration tank, the added volume of water has helped stablize my 90 gallon main tank, but the same can be done on any tank.
My only advise is to switch to some type of aragonite sand of at least 2 inches.
Remove manually as much of the hair algae as you can, including using a toothbrush to scrub it off, use a stiff one for tank only.
Check for nitrates and phosphates
Use a phosphate remover if necessary
and do several weekly water changes using RO/DI water.
Check to make sure that your lights are not to old or of improper spectrum.
Good luck
pmcrazi
Member
Thomas,
Thank you so much for all the great info. Been stuck in bed the last few days with flu bug. We did a major water change, and I attacked the aiptasia with the kalk mix, looks like I got all the big ones, and I'm hoping the peppermint I bought will get the small ones. I have to save up for the sand, but will do that asap. How many lbs of sand do you think I will need? It is a 36g bow tank. I also purchased an algae blenny, and he is doing a great job with the algae, I did put a phos pillow in my filter, and nitrates were at 0. We moved alot of the live rock around, and now have found new goodies in the rocks. Heres a new shot...thanks again! Karen
Thank you so much for all the great info. Been stuck in bed the last few days with flu bug. We did a major water change, and I attacked the aiptasia with the kalk mix, looks like I got all the big ones, and I'm hoping the peppermint I bought will get the small ones. I have to save up for the sand, but will do that asap. How many lbs of sand do you think I will need? It is a 36g bow tank. I also purchased an algae blenny, and he is doing a great job with the algae, I did put a phos pillow in my filter, and nitrates were at 0. We moved alot of the live rock around, and now have found new goodies in the rocks. Heres a new shot...thanks again! Karen
T
thomas712
Guest
Your welcome
Flu - I hate that, sorry to hear it. Hope your on the mend.
Sweet looking tank, always nice to have some goodies in there.
As to your situation: You have some choices.
As long as your not experiencing any problems with nitrates or phosphates then you can leave things alone with regards to your substrate. However you are having some algae problems, but it sounds like you are working on that, and it can happen with any system with any or no substrate.
If you want to change over to sand you can look for the Old Castle, Southdown, or Yardright playsands from your local Home Depot or other carrier. And you can cure it yourself before adding it to the tank.
If you want only a couple of inches of sand then get a couple of bags, this should give you plenty to play with. Bags are either 40 or 50 pounds.
If you have to buy the expensive stuff then I will calculate your pounds for 2 inches of substrate if you like. Just give me the overall dimentions of your tank.
Thomas
Flu - I hate that, sorry to hear it. Hope your on the mend.
Sweet looking tank, always nice to have some goodies in there.
As to your situation: You have some choices.
As long as your not experiencing any problems with nitrates or phosphates then you can leave things alone with regards to your substrate. However you are having some algae problems, but it sounds like you are working on that, and it can happen with any system with any or no substrate.
If you want to change over to sand you can look for the Old Castle, Southdown, or Yardright playsands from your local Home Depot or other carrier. And you can cure it yourself before adding it to the tank.
If you want only a couple of inches of sand then get a couple of bags, this should give you plenty to play with. Bags are either 40 or 50 pounds.
If you have to buy the expensive stuff then I will calculate your pounds for 2 inches of substrate if you like. Just give me the overall dimentions of your tank.
Thomas
pmcrazi
Member
Thomas, thanks again for the great info... I really think my algae problem is getting much better, and my nit's and phos are good> there have just been so many posts i've been reading here about how much better the sand base is. I would like to go into more of a reef tank, the gsp are doing really well, would like to try some shrooms or zoo's. Do you think they would also be ok with the cc? and what if I changes to PC's, right now I have a dual strip light, 1 reg flour bulb, and 1 marine atinic (sp?) if I change to the pc's will the cc bottom be less affective? One more thing, can you recommend what type of pc to go with? I really don't understand the wattage thing, but the lunar ones sound nice. Thanks again for your great info.
Karen
Karen
shawnts106
Member
THAT IS IT IM SICK OF IT!
KHILL, thank you for your wonderful thread here.. I now am definatly converting to sand because I have as well been battling Nitrates soooo long.. I DONT EVEN REMEMBER... I am going to move the aquarium... when I do I am going to replace the substrate with sugar sized... argonite reef sand.... and a bag of livesand.. and possible a bag of small granual cc.. its very small.. do you think this will be wise... adding the small granual cc.. its like the size of an * -astrick on this computer... very small.. would this be ok???
KHILL, thank you for your wonderful thread here.. I now am definatly converting to sand because I have as well been battling Nitrates soooo long.. I DONT EVEN REMEMBER... I am going to move the aquarium... when I do I am going to replace the substrate with sugar sized... argonite reef sand.... and a bag of livesand.. and possible a bag of small granual cc.. its very small.. do you think this will be wise... adding the small granual cc.. its like the size of an * -astrick on this computer... very small.. would this be ok???
T
thomas712
Guest
Originally posted by shawnts106
when I do I am going to replace the substrate with sugar sized... argonite reef sand.... and a bag of livesand.. and possible a bag of small granual cc.. its very small.. do you think this will be wise... adding the small granual cc.. its like the size of an * -astrick on this computer... very small.. would this be ok???
No crushed coral unless you can find it down to suger sized grain sizes. just remember that the largest of the substrate will rise to the top just like the crushed coral did for pmcrazi. The astrick size is still a little large really. Sugar sized is about the largest size I would want personally but I have some that is large like you are talking about.
Many hobbyists have found that Southdown, Yard right or its apparent new name of old castle sand works very well for reef aquariums. This is due to it being calcium carbonate based, and with an excellent grain sizes makes for a good functioning sand bed. 1/8mm is very fine> 1/256mm to 1/16mm is considered silt, and less that> 1/256mm is considered clay.
Southdown seems to mostly contains very fine to silt size particles, and maybe a few larger than 1/8mm.
Other aragonite sands are available through many LFS. If it is aragonite it is good.
Remember the smaller the grian size the more bacteria it can hold, the sand above that I have and am talking about is an ootlic style which means it has rounded edges, round holds more bacteria than say any other shape, as it has more surface area.
Crushed coral, and any other aragonite sand has the power to buffer the water but things have to get really out of wack for it to happen anyway, so don't let them fool you with that buffer sales tactic.
Thomas
shawnts106
Member
Yes, Im getting sugar size sand that way I don have to deal with NH4 and PO4!!!!
Im sick of dealing with that crap!
My LFS has a bag of Arganite Reef sugar sized sand for 40$ for a 40LB bag!
... I think its a little high, but oh well. I cant find a better deal as of now, so... untill I do I supose Ill be buying from there!
Im sick of dealing with that crap!
My LFS has a bag of Arganite Reef sugar sized sand for 40$ for a 40LB bag!
... I think its a little high, but oh well. I cant find a better deal as of now, so... untill I do I supose Ill be buying from there!
T
thomas712
Guest
Nitrates and phosphates are going to be a part of any tank no matter what type or - no - type of substrate you have. Many factors here.
With regards to your substrate if you are going for a denitrification DSB then you will need 4+ inches. This will be one way to help export the nitrates.
With macro algae you can also export the NO3 PO4.
A water change can do it.
Denitrator coils
Nitrate or Phosphate sponges
Refugiums.
Active protien skimming.
the list goes on...
Just changing substrates will not mean that you will automatically reduce or eliminate NO3 and PO4.
Its up everyone to have 1, 2 or several ways to reduce those two problems that happen in all tanks.
Now I believe any saltwater system will be better for having a sand substrate vs. crushed coral, but you also have to look at the big picture as to why NO3 and PO4 are being introduced and have a way to export them as well. Such as the above suggestions.
Just want to make sure that you know that having sand will not mean that you will not have to deal with NO3 and PH4 anymore.
I deal with it, many of us deal with it through regular maintanence or fancy equipment or filtration systems.
Thomas
With regards to your substrate if you are going for a denitrification DSB then you will need 4+ inches. This will be one way to help export the nitrates.
With macro algae you can also export the NO3 PO4.
A water change can do it.
Denitrator coils
Nitrate or Phosphate sponges
Refugiums.
Active protien skimming.
the list goes on...
Just changing substrates will not mean that you will automatically reduce or eliminate NO3 and PO4.
Its up everyone to have 1, 2 or several ways to reduce those two problems that happen in all tanks.
Now I believe any saltwater system will be better for having a sand substrate vs. crushed coral, but you also have to look at the big picture as to why NO3 and PO4 are being introduced and have a way to export them as well. Such as the above suggestions.
Just want to make sure that you know that having sand will not mean that you will not have to deal with NO3 and PH4 anymore.
I deal with it, many of us deal with it through regular maintanence or fancy equipment or filtration systems.
Thomas
shawnts106
Member
Just changing substrates will not mean that you will automatically reduce or eliminate NO3 and PO4.
Yes, I absolutly know!
... bioload has a huge part of that!~ LOL!
and in my posts I was referring to getting sand because it helps thats all
thanks for clearifying that with everyone else too!!!
Yes, I absolutly know!
... bioload has a huge part of that!~ LOL!and in my posts I was referring to getting sand because it helps thats all
thanks for clearifying that with everyone else too!!!