QTs, stress, and perhaps unnecessary meds.

[calvertbill]

As many of you doubtless know already I QT everything before it's allowed in a display tank.
I was thinking last night about the time lost if the trophant shows up on a fish 4 weeks into the 5 week QT period? I'd have to start hyposalinity treatment and add many more weeks in QT. If, however, I put these perfectly healthy looking fish in QT and start treating them with Kich-Ich (I still have two huge unopened bottles I bought from before I went to hyposalinity)?
If the fish ARE infected I've forestalled a big extension of time in QT. If they aren't infected all I've done is subject them to unnecessary meds. Is this in and of itself stressful?

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by Calvertbill
As many of you doubtless know already I QT everything before it's allowed in a display tank.
I was thinking last night about the time lost if the trophant shows up on a fish 4 weeks into the 5 week QT period? I'd have to start hyposalinity treatment and add many more weeks in QT. If, however, I put these perfectly healthy looking fish in QT and start treating them with Kich-Ich (I still have two huge unopened bottles I bought from before I went to hyposalinity)?
If the fish ARE infected I've forestalled a big extension of time in QT. If they aren't infected all I've done is subject them to unnecessary meds. Is this in and of itself stressful?
Kick-ich seems to have a rather varied success rate. It's not nearly as successful as hypo. At any rate, there are horror stories about these meds being used and having dire consequences.

 

[saltn00b]

i have had ich show up on a fish 4 weeks in QT, hours before i was setting up acclimation buckets to bring him into the display. since performing Hypo on a healthy fish (correctly) is supposed to be stress reducing anyway, i have since started performing Hypo on every new arrival i get , without waiting for ich to appear. I seem to have very bad suppliers or bad luck in this trade, because i am almost guaranteed to have some sort of disease on the fish i get, no matter where i get it from. just something to consider.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by Calvertbill
As many of you doubtless know already I QT everything before it's allowed in a display tank.
I was thinking last night about the time lost if the trophant shows up on a fish 4 weeks into the 5 week QT period? I'd have to start hyposalinity treatment and add many more weeks in QT. If, however, I put these perfectly healthy looking fish in QT and start treating them with Kich-Ich (I still have two huge unopened bottles I bought from before I went to hyposalinity)?
If the fish ARE infected I've forestalled a big extension of time in QT. If they aren't infected all I've done is subject them to unnecessary meds. Is this in and of itself stressful?

QT away! If you get some comfort level in doing that, go right ahead. I personally don't get any benefit out of it. I try and keep all my current livestock healthy, and make it so if a disease is put into my DT, they can fight it off. There are so many variables in this hobby, that unless you treat your tanks like an isolation room in a hospital, there's always a way to infect your DT with a disease. I can't count the number of recent ich threads where people have done the 3 week hypo, and the ich is either still there, or has come back and infected another one of their fish. All it takes is putting that net, cup, syphon hose, whatever that you used just once in your QT, into your DT. We're human. I forget where I just set my keys down every once in a while. It just takes that one slip, and you're just as susceptible of putting a disease into your DT as someone who doesn't have a QT.
I used Ich Attack to treat my tang in my DT. After it was gone, everyone seems to be happy. I have tried adding a couple of fish into my tank after the treatment. Yes, they died. Was it due to the meds, improper acclimation, just a 'bad' fish? Who knows? No one ever seems to have an answer why new fish die. Guess you could pay a vet to do an autopsy to see why it died. But what would that cost?
So if QTing gives you that sense of security knowing you are putting healthy fish into your DT, go for it. But QTing isn't 100%. I'm finding nothing in this hobby is.

 

[calvertbill]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
QT away! If you get some comfort level in doing that, go right ahead. I personally don't get any benefit out of it. I try and keep all my current livestock healthy, and make it so if a disease is put into my DT, they can fight it off. There are so many variables in this hobby, that unless you treat your tanks like an isolation room in a hospital, there's always a way to infect your DT with a disease. I can't count the number of recent ich threads where people have done the 3 week hypo, and the ich is either still there, or has come back and infected another one of their fish. All it takes is putting that net, cup, syphon hose, whatever that you used just once in your QT, into your DT. We're human. I forget where I just set my keys down every once in a while. It just takes that one slip, and you're just as susceptible of putting a disease into your DT as someone who doesn't have a QT.
I used Ich Attack to treat my tang in my DT. After it was gone, everyone seems to be happy. I have tried adding a couple of fish into my tank after the treatment. Yes, they died. Was it due to the meds, improper acclimation, just a 'bad' fish? Who knows? No one ever seems to have an answer why new fish die. Guess you could pay a vet to do an autopsy to see why it died. But what would that cost?
So if QTing gives you that sense of security knowing you are putting healthy fish into your DT, go for it. But QTing isn't 100%. I'm finding nothing in this hobby is.
I was going to ignore your contribution? to the thread but I'm wearing my anti-misinformation hat this evening.
1. I don't QT to gain inner peace or comfort. My goal is to interrupt the life cycle of the parasite and render it dead. If I don't

[hr]
it up it's 100% effective.
2. Saying that "I personally don't get any benefit out of it. I try and keep all my current livestock healthy, and make it so if a disease is put into my DT, they can fight it off." may be the silliest comment I've ever heard from a non-institutionalized person. It's sort of like saying it's okay for your kids to play in a war zone because they know how to duck.
3. "I can't count the number of recent ich threads where people have done the 3 week hypo"...HELLO! The life cycle of the parasite is:Tomont stage 3-28 days, Theront stage 1-2 days, Trophont stage 3-7 days, free swimming Trophont 18 hours. Add it up it comes out up to 38 days. QTing for 3 weeks is probably a waste of everyone's time.
4. "We're human. I forget where I just set my keys down every once in a while. It just takes that one slip, and you're just as susceptible of putting a disease into your DT as someone who doesn't have a QT." Now that's REALLY intelligent! Using that logic you must save a fortune on Doctors! Why use them? They might prescribe a pill you'll forget to take!

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Calvertbill
As many of you doubtless know already I QT everything before it's allowed in a display tank.
I was thinking last night about the time lost if the trophant shows up on a fish 4 weeks into the 5 week QT period? I'd have to start hyposalinity treatment and add many more weeks in QT. If, however, I put these perfectly healthy looking fish in QT and start treating them with Kich-Ich (I still have two huge unopened bottles I bought from before I went to hyposalinity)?
If the fish ARE infected I've forestalled a big extension of time in QT. If they aren't infected all I've done is subject them to unnecessary meds. Is this in and of itself stressful?
Well, all that Kick Ich is going to do is help the parasites not attatch. You will not harm your fish, but you will make it even harder to notice the parasites on them. This med does help if a person is in a bind and their QT is cycling and their fish are infested. It helps keep the parasites off of the fish. It is not effective because it only keeps the parasites off of the body, not out of the gills. Enough will host to reproduce. If you are worried, you can hypo fish when you get them. As for the med, try selling it to someone on here in the classifieds. You may get a buyer

 

[calvertbill]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Well, all that Kick Ich is going to do is help the parasites not attatch. You will not harm your fish, but you will make it even harder to notice the parasites on them. This med does help if a person is in a bind and their QT is cycling and their fish are infested. It helps keep the parasites off of the fish. It is not effective because it only keeps the parasites off of the body, not out of the gills. Enough will host to reproduce. If you are worried, you can hypo fish when you get them. As for the med, try selling it to someone on here in the classifieds. You may get a buyer

I thought about that, thanks!

 

[yosemite sam]

I don't medicate my QT tank unless I see signs of disease on the fish, or the fish came for a store tank that had sick fish. Many medicines can have nasty side effects. Copper, for example, is an immuno-supressant, which of course means that we can potentially make a healthy fish sick by needless medicating it.
It would stink to have a fish get sick at the end of the QT period, but I think the whole QT process itself can be stressful enough without medicating fish needlessly.

 

[t316]

Originally Posted by Calvertbill
I was going to ignore your contribution? to the thread but I'm wearing my anti-misinformation hat this evening.
1. I don't QT to gain inner peace or comfort. My goal is to interrupt the life cycle of the parasite and render it dead. If I don't

[hr]
it up it's 100% effective.
2. Saying that "I personally don't get any benefit out of it. I try and keep all my current livestock healthy, and make it so if a disease is put into my DT, they can fight it off." may be the silliest comment I've ever heard from a non-institutionalized person. It's sort of like saying it's okay for your kids to play in a war zone because they know how to duck.
3. "I can't count the number of recent ich threads where people have done the 3 week hypo"...HELLO! The life cycle of the parasite is:Tomont stage 3-28 days, Theront stage 1-2 days, Trophont stage 3-7 days, free swimming Trophont 18 hours. Add it up it comes out up to 38 days. QTing for 3 weeks is probably a waste of everyone's time.
4. "We're human. I forget where I just set my keys down every once in a while. It just takes that one slip, and you're just as susceptible of putting a disease into your DT as someone who doesn't have a QT." Now that's REALLY intelligent! Using that logic you must save a fortune on Doctors! Why use them? They might prescribe a pill you'll forget to take!

Although I may, or may not, agree with all of his suggestions...I wouldn't put up a thread asking advice only to slam the one's you don't like. Just IMO. But I see your point on rudedog40...I'm starting to wonder myself if this is not a 2nd account for someone else who is using this to cause damage.

 

[sepulatian]

It would stink to have a fish get sick at the end of the QT period, but I think the whole QT process itself can be stressful enough without medicating fish needlessly.
The whole point of qt is to NOT stress your fish. If the qt is cycled then this is a safe haven for your fish. They do not have to compete for food or territory. It is a place for them to be calm and pampered while we observe our fish. If there is a need to treat then this is the place to do it in. Many people see a QT as a treatment area. It isn't just that. All fish should be brought into a qt before going into the display.

 

[calvertbill]

Originally Posted by T316
Although I may, or may not, agree with all of his suggestions...I wouldn't put up a thread asking advice only to slam the one's you don't like. Just IMO. But I see your point on rudedog40...I'm starting to wonder myself if this is not a 2nd account for someone else who is using this to cause damage.
Oh! I didn't recognize the name, I just would rather my neighborhood kids weren't allowed by their parents to respond to the sign which proclaims "Free candy at the local hospital's ebola ward (only chewed once!)."
Have you seen other instances where any member seems to be deliberately attempting to misinform? I would think the moderators time would be more valuably put to use there than by putting text filters which prohibit three letter words which come in handy describing the difference between males and females.
Nobody knows better than I do that I'm just a beginner who has A LOT to learn if I want to create an attractive SAFE mini-ecosystem for my captive guests. I guess it's because I WANT to learn and read voraciously that I hate it when a thread seems to advize me to a course of action that is patently absurd!
Anyway, on to happier things...
My shipment from SWF arrived and the Desjardinii and the Powder Brown look Great! (they went straight to QT) I do have a lot of learning to do with the polyps and corals as to how much water flow is not enough or too much and I'm meeting with someone tomorrow who was recommended to me as a reliable marine critter sitter. I need to have at least one (ideally 2-3) people I can trust to look after my guys when I go to the ballgame!
http://www.ironbuttbaseballtour.com/

 

[yosemite sam]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
The whole point of qt is to NOT stress your fish. If the qt is cycled then this is a safe haven for your fish. They do not have to compete for food or territory. It is a place for them to be calm and pampered while we observe our fish. If there is a need to treat then this is the place to do it in. Many people see a QT as a treatment area. It isn't just that. All fish should be brought into a qt before going into the display.
I do QT all my fish before going into my tank, but I've always considered QT tanks less than ideal setups. In most cases, they are bare-bones setups. To me, QT tanks are the crowded, ugly dorm rooms of the aquarium world. They are cramped, don't look much like home, and probably have that funky smell.
Unless you have the room and resources, they are usually smaller tanks than our display tanks. Mine is a 10 gallon (I only have a few, mostly small, fish in my 75), and all of the people I know that QT have tanks that are 20 gallons or smaller. If your display tank is a large FOWLR, then you might have a bigger QT tank, but depending on what fish we have, these small QT tanks are certainly not ideal for many types of fish.
The second 'issue' I have with QT tanks is that they seem as though they are less stable than our display tanks, even fully cycled tanks. They have much less biological filtration, since they usually don't have live rock. Most have penguin wheels or other filters, and have some PVC pipe or plastic aquarium decorations. This is compounded by the fact that most of the time we don't have fish in the tank. My QT has been set up for over a year and a half, of which it has had fish in it maybe 4 months, and not four months consecutively. I do water changes with my display tank water, and feed the tank occasionally when there are no fish, but this isn't the same as having living things in them all the time.
So yes, you should always QT fish. It's important to make sure you are only adding healthy fish to your display tank. But while it may be calmer, there are other factors inherent to many QT tanks that I think can stress the fish.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Calvertbill
...Have you seen other instances where any member seems to be deliberately attempting to misinform? I would think the moderators time would be more valuably put to use there than by putting text filters which prohibit three letter words which come in handy describing the difference between males and females....
As Mods we often respond in disagreement whenever we see what we consider "misinformation" (which I'll do at the end of this thread.) We don't, however, delete posts with what we regard as bad info or wrong info. We don't censor opinions like that.
We also don't have anything to do with the "filters" on the forum, other than to suggest to admin words that are getting through and are being reported by forum members.
As for QT; as Sep pointed out, one of the huge benefits of a QT tank is to provide a safe haven to allow fish to adjust to captivity and to recover from the massive shock they've been through in being captured and transported to us.
I like your dorm room analogy, but take it a step farther. What if you'd been kidnapped off the street on your way to work one morning, thrown into a car trunk for 18 hours. Then boxed up, shipped for a day or two in a box, thrown in a holding cell with a bunch of other people and animals, then shipped again....
That dorm room becomes much more appealing when you finally get to it, doesn't it

 

[yosemite sam]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I like your dorm room analogy, but take it a step farther. What if you'd been kidnapped off the street on your way to work one morning, thrown into a car trunk for 18 hours. Then boxed up, shipped for a day or two in a box, thrown in a holding cell with a bunch of other people and animals, then shipped again....
That dorm room becomes much more appealing when you finally get to it, doesn't it

Well, it probably does at first, but our fish in our QT tanks for several weeks, not a few days. My point is simply this, a QT tank is never going to be as nice as a display tank, and just because it's better than the conditions our fish came to us in, it doesn't mean it's not still stressfull. Going from a really stressfull situation to a less but still stressful situation means we are still being stressed. Yes, it's better than the LFS tank, or the holding tanks at a wholesaler, but I wouldn't go so far as to say our fish are being pampered in QT. And going back to the original question posed in this thread, I would try to avoid adding any unnecessary stress to this situation by medicating. OK, off my soap box now

 

[1journeyman]

I agree with ya; the less we can do to stress critters in the QT the better.

 

[saltn00b]

agreed that is a lot of mis information... i just want to add that i have used kick ich twice. once before i knew about Hypo and i was a noob and i was in a jam... and amazingly it worked. the second time, i was in a bad situation and tried to use it unil i could get extra QT tanks set up. this time i had a reef system, and it basically melted my rhodactis mushrooms and xenia.

 

[stdreb27]

Man ironbuttbaseball tour? One day I would love to do that. I just need a bike, and someone elses credit card. If they suspend everyone on the list, baseball may not be so interesting next year.
Just hypo them while in QT that would solve your hypothetical dilema.