Question for Beth and other long term hobbiest!!!

[mikeyjer]

I've got two saltwater tanks, one's a 46 bowfront, one is a 55 gal. My bowfront only has the niger trigger, the kole tang died from disease and the yellow tang died from copper I believe. The 55, yellow tang died from copper I believe. The left over are sailfan tang, clown fish, 4 green chromis and a pajama cardinal. I will remove the copper from the tanks by using a carbon bag within my canister filter and doing some water changes. Will I be able to put a hermit crab back in my 55??? I do not know if it's safe to. I will repurchase yellow tangs that will be QT. I've learned my expensive lesson. The thing that I don't understand is we do water change weekly. The tanks has been running for quite sometime already. I don't understand why I have so much problems. It might be that the fish we got from the store had diseases when we first got them. I try to be as careful as possible. But I think QT is the best option after what I've gone through, seen, and read. I guess next time when I go through diesease, hyposalinity is the best option after copper killed my tangs. What is the best way to keep up my tanks??? Should I clean out my canister filter and how when I do it?? I've been told how to clean it, but I want more advice on it. Been told bad stuffs about butterfly fish, I had one Raccoon Butterfly that constantly getting lymphocyctis, are they that hard to keep?? cause we were thinking about getting heniochus butterfly next. Thanks for your help!!!

 

[lefty]

I think the root of your problems here are your choice of fish. Butterflies, Triggers, and all Tangs (with the exception of a Kole Tang) should not be kept in a 46g or 55g (the Kole Tang should be in the 55). Those tank sizes are much too small. Oh, and yes, butterflies are considered to be among the more difficult fish to keep.
Using carbon alone will not rid your tank of copper.
-lefty

 

[mikeyjer]

I don't think that is the root of my problem. I am considering of getting a 150 gal tank down the road. I have these two tanks to start out with until there are not any signs of serious problems, then they will move into the larger tank. Which that would be a year down the road. That is the reason why I get them small to start with so the tank size would not be a problem. I want to be sure they're all healthy before I get a larger tank to house them in. The 150 gal would be my main tank to show, it would contain live rocks and reef. I want to put the tangs and other reef safe fish within. That's why I get them in my 46 and 55 to start with until they're good to be in the 150gal tank. I've talked to a few long term saltwater fish hobbiest and they said it was a good idea. I'm just gathering more ideas to see more options and resolutions to problems etc etc. I need some long term hobbiest to reply to my thread above to direct me in the right direction. Thanks!!!
By the way, I am doing water changes too to dilute the copper other then carbon filter alone. That's why I'm asking what is there more to do to get rid of copper.

 

[beth]

Originally posted by lefty
I think the root of your problems here are your choice of fish. Butterflies, Triggers, and all Tangs (with the exception of a Kole Tang) should not be kept in a 46g or 55g (the Kole Tang should be in the 55). Those tank sizes are much too small. Oh, and yes, butterflies are considered to be among the more difficult fish to keep.
Using carbon alone will not rid your tank of copper.
-lefty
I totally agree, if my opinion means anything. Don't take these comments lightly.
Also, tangs have little tolerance for copper or carbon. I would not put any inverts in a tank that has been treated with copper. Carbon will do a good job of removing copper in the water but it can not and will not touch all the carbon that has seeped in to everything else. IMO, tangs should be only kept in tanks with live rock and at least 125-150 gals.
The tank sizes you have now are considered smaller tanks in this hobby and you should only be keeping small passive fish. Not hard swimmers or fish with specialized diets. Do you have live rock in your tank? Hopefully not since you treated it with copper.

 

[lefty]

Originally posted by Mikeyjer
I don't think that is the root of my problem. I am considering of getting a 150 gal tank down the road. I have these two tanks to start out with until there are not any signs of serious problems, then they will move into the larger tank. Which that would be a year down the road. That is the reason why I get them small to start with so the tank size would not be a problem. I want to be sure they're all healthy before I get a larger tank to house them in. The 150 gal would be my main tank to show, it would contain live rocks and reef. I want to put the tangs and other reef safe fish within. That's why I get them in my 46 and 55 to start with until they're good to be in the 150gal tank. I've talked to a few long term saltwater fish hobbiest and they said it was a good idea. I'm just gathering more ideas to see more options and resolutions to problems etc etc. I need some long term hobbiest to reply to my thread above to direct me in the right direction. Thanks!!!
By the way, I am doing water changes too to dilute the copper other then carbon filter alone. That's why I'm asking what is there more to do to get rid of copper.
I'm telling you right now that your choice of fish, in association with tanks of those sizes, is part of your problem. I am not a "longterm hobbyist", but that doesn't mean my advice should be discarded. I know exactly what I'm talking about and have done countless hours of research on this hobby.
If you ever want to have inverts in a tank exposed to copper again, you'll need to completely take the tank down and clean it. A strong acid will eliminate the copper. Muriatic acid (also known as hydrochloric) will work. It can be found at places that sell pool supplies. Advice from Bang Guy: "Be careful with this stuff and do it outside as the vapors are really bad. Dilute the acid and brush it on all the seams. 15 minutes will do the trick. Rinse with a lot of water." Copper is absorbed into the silicone seams of the tank and is periodically released into the water. Also, you may want to look into a product called Cuprisorb.
-lefty

 

[mikeyjer]

I'm not discarding your opinions at all actually. I honor your opinion. I am taking it into consideration. I understand that they do need a larger tank. But I don't have all that many tangs, just 3 tangs actually, one yellow tang with the trigger and one yellow tang with sailfan tang and the other little ones together in separate tanks. They've never fought and gotten along quite nicely. But I do need to get rid of the copper since the copper have killed my tangs. I will try the methods you've mentioned. Am looking for other opinions also. Thanks for your help!!!

 

[elfdoctors]

I also do not feel that carbon will remove much carbon. Carbon is a good medium to remove organic toxins. It is nearly useless for inorganic toxins.
The cuprisorb will work a little better. However, usually if you want to have inverts, it is best to get rid of all of your substrate and live rock.

 

[mwaraxa]

Hey Mikey, i don't think your listening to what lefty is telling ya. Bottom line is your tank has already been exposed to copper. And that copper has been absorbed into the seals of the tank. Carbon and water changes might help but thats never going to really solve the problem. You asked about crabs. Well copper kills them. And like lefty said, unless you bust yer tank down and wash it out. . . Don't be surprised if your inverts and other fish that are sensitive to copper ( ie. . your tangs) keep dying. Even if you did wash the tank out with acid i still wonder how much copper would be left over. . .

 

[lion_crazz]

I agree totally with all three comments that are being made in this thread. It does not seem like you are really taking the advice given to you to heart. Beth knows what she is talking about here. She does not have a beautiful tank from luck. She has a beautiful tank because she knows what should and should not go into her tank, and she understands the husbandry that comes along with it (not that you don't lefty, I just remember seeing how wonderful Beth's tank is).
You do not have a large enough tank to house the fish you are trying to keep. Three tangs is a lot, especially in the tanks that you have. Tangs are open-ocean swimming fish, as are triggers. Your tanks are just not going to cut it.
Also, there is no way the copper is being fully removed by carbon and water changes. I would definitely not add any inverts to that tank.

 

[mikeyjer]

I do take it into consideration as all of you have commented. Beth has not answer this at all first of all. Second, the tangs are in two separate tanks, not all in one!!! I kept only ONE tang in the 46 bowfront and the other two in the 55. Like I've said earlier, they're small, not big ones. I am intending on getting a larger tank, 150gal down the road, by christmas. You have to read everything I put down before you make your comments. It's a little late on the copper comment, it has been put in and I am trying to remove it. It was put in before I had the QT tank, now I have the QT tank, it will not be put in anymore once I get it cleared out. I was gathering information, more then just one comment from one source. If I have to take the whole thing down and clean it, I will, but like I've said, I am gathering sources. I try to gather as much as possible so I can learn more about this hobby. I do appreciate all the thoughts that was put into this thread, not leaving anything out, but just to gather more that's all. Earlier today I was just commenting about lefty's comment to my partner about taking down the tank and clean it out completely, so it's not like I'm not taking it to heart. I don't think it's so wrong to gather more sources to learn. Be easy on me guys, I am here to listen and to learn just like the rest of you. I'm sure you've had your troubles in the past with your tanks too when you first got started. I've only been in it for about 3 months now. I would need more of your inputs as I go on that I am sure of. But for now, I just want to hear more inputs on more ways to get rid of copper from my tank and at the end I will choose the best result and see what happens from there. But like I've said earlier, I am very much considering what lefty said to take down the tank and clean it. Thanks for all your inputs, I will post my results once I get it done. Also, I'm not putting any inverts in until I know the copper is gone for sure. If I do take it down and clean it, I probably would toss out the sand and all and just start the process all over again, it might be the best.

 

[mwaraxa]

Hey mikey. . . I. . . I just wanna say. . . that . . I'm sorry man if i was alittle harsh earlier. I do think you would be making a good call by replacing the substrate if you do end up breaking down the tank. If your going to do it you have to do it all the way. Otherwise you might end up regreting it later.
Good luck!

 

[lefty]

I wish you the best of luck with your tank.
Although discussing your current fish isn't helping you out with the copper situation, I just want to inform you of tangs and triggers and their tank sizes. I'm going to quote myself from a thread concerning this issue:
"Some fish require a larger tank to accomodate their behavior and not just their size. Tangs are among these fish. They stress out if kept in smaller tanks. Stress leads to a shortened life. They literally need the horizontal swimming space of a larger tank. Other factors besides the size of the fish play into the tank size a fish needs. "
This is why we're concerned about your fish. We're just trying to help you do what's best for both you and your fish. A 150g tank is a good size for the fish you currently have. Is it at all possible for you to have Christmas in April?
-lefty

 

[lefty]

Oh, and here's my lovely tank. It's not nearly as stunning as Beth's, but my fish are happy and so am I. The LR looks much better than it does in the picture because it finally started getting some growth. It's about three months old. :happyfish

 

[beth]

Hobbyists are very passionate about this hobby and about their opinions. The standard opinion about copper and tangs is a hot topic. Tangs should be in a larger tank, but if you are going to get a larger tank by Xmas, then, ok. If you plan to put 3 tangs in to one tank, you may want to get at least 150-200gal.
Yea, copper seeps into the seals and is absorbed by substrate, both rock and sand. Wise would be not to expect to set up a tank with any kind of inverts in a tank where sand and rock have been exposed to copper. However, as for the seams, I have used my reef tank which was previously a FO and exposed to copper. It may be a probem, or it may not. If you try to set up inverts in a tank exposed to copper, then you can set it up with the water first, let it run for a week or 2 wo any water changes [water only], then test for copper. This is for the tank only, and does not apply to saving LS or LR. Use the best copper test kit on the market.

 

[mikeyjer]

Thanks for all your replies. I have made my decision. I am going to dump out the substrate and start the tank all over again. It is the best thing to do like all of you have mentioned. I'm going to clean the tank real good and test the copper after some water have been in it for awhile like Beth have mentioned then go from there. I really do appreciate all your help. I won't get anymore fish in my tank until it's running well. Also since I just gotten a puppy yesterday, she drain my account, the fish needs to wait. lol....Again, thanks guys!!! Will post results once everything is done!!! :happy:

 

[mwaraxa]

What kind of puppy did you get?

 

[mikeyjer]

A Siberian Husky, almost 5 months old. Red & White with Green Eyes...She's gorgeous!!!

 

[mwaraxa]

I've always liked husky's. Congrats on the new addition to the family. I wish my babies were still that small. I have to pure bred golden retrievers and they are absolutely perfect. They are already a year and a half old.