Questions for Americans...

[snakeblitz33]

Early in American history, our society was centered around agriculture. Those young students that did not do well in school could simply get a job on the farm that they were raised in. They all had jobs, regardless if they dropped out or not. You don't need to be particularly the brightest bulb in the box in order to shovel manure or plow a field. They didn't have to know the entire molecular process of fermentation or how to explicate a poem. When they dropped out, they may have still lived with their parents - but they worked. They worked on the farm for their food, room, board and entertainment - and eventually they would build their own houses - close to their parents. There was a sense of purpose - and the seasons and weather determined the outcomes. Call this nostalgia if you will, but it's a fact that most people at that time did not grow up in big cities. Skip forward to today..
Many students now grow up in a school system that is highly disconnected from reality. Where at one time, practicality and common sense was taught, now there are technicalities and emotions. No one wants to hurt anyone's feelings anymore. No one's child is mentally challenged, they just have a learning disability. Children today are more scheduled and structured than a wedding planners calendar. Where has imagination and reason gone, when our kids can look anything up on Google for an answer? The educational system is putting more and more pressure on kids to learn as much as they can about complex studies in Math and Science - and has the expectation that each and every single student will pass these classes (No Child Left Behind) when in fact some kids are just smarter than others. But, there is no outlet for these kids that don't do well in school. Used to, a drop out could get a job in a factory, a warehouse, a delivery service, a shipyard, anything that needed good strong workers to meet quotas. Now, those jobs are being taken by illegals to this country - but I'm not so worried about the work that needs to be done is getting done - I'm concerned that these kids that are growing up these days thinks that it is beneath them to work in a factory, on a farm, in a shipyard. We have coddled our kids into being this way - "each and every child is a unique butterfly," is the kind of mentality that has given our modern generations a sense of false confidence in ourselves. Whereas, a job well done a hundred years ago might have meant getting all the hay in the barn, today it means that you achieved some sort of stature, praise, attention, or serious financial gain. Why do we insist in our society that everyone should be completely equal? Why do we insist that everyone, no matter how intelligent they are can rise to the top and become famous and wealthy? Why are we teaching these concepts to our kids, when we know deep down inside that most of us will never become movie stars and rock gods? Why do we insist on coddling our kids... where "everyone is a winner?" Why does it seem like I belong to the laziest generation ever?
I don't know. I'm sorry for a rant, but it's something that I have observed with our society today that I would like to get some opinions on. I'm NOT saying that "back in the day it was roses" because that is not what I am saying. You still had to work hard, put in a good days work, take responsibility for your actions, your family, and your finances etc. As a modern society, and including my generation (born in 80s and up) wants more, more, more while doing less, less, less. It does not happen that way.
Now, I am doing something about my situation. I live on my own with my wife and my one year old. My wife and I will both be college graduates and working as teachers. I am striving to learn all that I can about parenting so that I can guide my daughter into a lifestyle that does not lead her into a false sense of confidence. I am making something of myself - albeit I am not working on a farm - I'm one of the upper-bell-curve people in society that did have the opportunity to go to college and do well. But what about my classmates? Most of them are satisfied working at McDonalds, Wendy's and gas stations across town making minimum wage - where's the job opportunities for them that were there a hundred years ago? They've gone. They have moved across the seas. I postulate that it is because of what we have been teaching our kids for the last thirty years... not necessarily because "it's cheaper overseas" but because we have bred a society that thinks it's beneath them to work in an environment such as that.
I'm not saying, either, that we should all go live on a farm and "get back to nature" in the Emerson point of view. I love the fact that our society has produced medical technology, wonderfully gifted engineers, and software technology that is making thriving businesses. But where do we find a balance between the two? Can we find a balance between the two?
Thank you for your opinions. Please by all means leave comments, suggestions, your theories as to why things are the way they are and possible fixes? I realize it's not something that could be fixed by this discussion - I just want to try to learn why things are the way they are so I might not be so bitter about the situation.

 

[acrylic51]

I'm following you Seth.....I'm not of the thinking that kids or anyone in general should be coddled....You earn what you earn IMO. With that said I'm not sure if I agree that society insists that everyone should rise to the top and succeed....I think the concept that is possibly being stressed or repeated is that anyone "could" achieve greatness or success....It's something that's bestowed upon you.
What do you call success.....A college degree.....fancy cars, huge house......You have a college degree....Does that make you an instant success or cream of the crop....Smarter than the next guy....Doubt it. I think your classing or grouping possibly of people that might have dropped out of school makes them less a person or failure to a sense.....I'm not saying all, but probably a decent percentage of those you "grouped" are smarter and creative than 1/2 the people you'll graduate with.....Some of the brightest people do manual labor in those ship yards and such......Has it ever dawned or crossed your mind that schooling; education might not just appeal to all.....It sure as heck didn't me at the time.....
Is your generation lazy......I think so....Honestly most don't know what a hard days work, for fair pay is.....Most would cringe at the thought of humping, back breaking work outside on a scorching day.....I do have a degree.....Am I working in my field......Definitely not. Do I want to work in my degree field.....Definitely not....I once worked for a guy....Large company; worldwide.....Masters degree, Master ASE mechanic.....Guess what....The biggest dunce in the world.....Masters Degree, Master ASE mechanic and puts a clutch in backwards not 1, but 3 times and couldn't figure it out.....He was my boss because of a Masters degree.....Makes me think all the smarts in the world doesn't replace common sense or know how.....To a degree you can have all the book smarts in the world, but if you can't apply it your worthless....
Why do I do a menial job as you might call it or others.....Bottom line I enjoy it.....Degree or not, I can't stand to be in an office or building....I like to be on the road.....I like to drive, no one to really talk to, I hit my customers place idle conversation and gone back in my own little solitude where I can dream about fish stuff.....Why do I do it.....money......even with my degree I could get a decent management job.....but why....I make a fair living, home every night, can pay my bills and then some, but does that equate to success.....No.....Success is what "we" make of it......
Curious Seth and gonna pick on you a bit.....Here in my state the teachers pension fund is funded by the public.....the masses....How is it in your state....I wonder why I should be funding someone else's retirement....Why should I when they had the same opportunities and choices as I had, but some will say the salary they make.....Choices......I guess we all must make......

 

[flower]

Hi,
I have to second what Acrylic said about how to measure success.
When I was in school, I had dyslexia so bad it was impossible to keep up with the other kids. I dropped out of school in my Junior year. I still was taking basic math, and I couldn't read well at all. I had freshmen and sophomore classes besides the Junior classes...all I was doing was getting farther and farther behind. There were no programs for kids like me, we were just pushed to keep trying. I quit school, and went to work.
I will tell any young person to stay in school because the less education you have, the harder you use your back to make a living. I held my Taco Bell job for 6 months, and then applied for a railroad job. It had good pay and good benefits, and I knew because of my limited education I couldn't do better. I held that job for 35 years and because my knees. feet and back gave out, I had to take disability and retire early. I'm crippled up now. Working hard since I was 16 has taken it's toll.
Back when I was a teen, a drop out could get a hard labor job... such as what I did, factory work was abundant in the city, as well as farm work outside the city, and lots of young men joined the army. Now-a-days you CAN"T get a railroad job, or join the army without graduating, or getting a high school GED. There are no factory jobs, they are moving to other countries where they can pay less, so there just isn't enough work to go around.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Acrylic, you misread... I admire those people that go to work and do hard labor and take responsibility for their lives. I admire those that want to take care of their families, their kids, their spouses by going to work, no matter what it might be in. I, however, don't like my generation and the generations after me that are living with their parents and figuring out how to get on welfare and food stamps - living off the government and having no desire to work, even though they are able to. Teaching is also not an easy job, and since teaching in a public school is a state and federal funded system, then yes - everyone pays in for retirement, even the teachers out of their paychecks. All state and federal workers are paid by their state and federal money - which means that yes, all of them get money from John Q. Public. Not just teachers.

 

[reefraff]

We still grow a lot of food here. It's just like everything else though. Automation and machinery has taken the place of low skill workers that used to work the fields. As machines took over agriculture manufacturing provided ample job opportunities for "non achievers" who could start out sweeping floors and dumping trash and move their way up to a pretty good living with a good work ethic. The idea of working your way up the ladder is a foreign concept to many college kids these days. They expect to start out with a job that pays for all the toys and vacations right out the gates. I blame the college recruiters as much as anyone. They promise a lot of pie in the sky to those they try to woo into their school.
When my kid was younger I did what I could to break him of the crap. I'd pay 30 bucks for shoes. If he wanted the Nike logo he had to make up the difference. When it came time to drive I told him we would supply the car and within reason, gas and repairs. He had to pay his insurance. He didn't start driving until he was 17 because of it. I don't think he thought I was serious. I am not sure how much of that took with him. He wanted to go to the University with his friends. He has a test phobia so I doubt he could have even got in BUT he didn't even know what he wanted to do. Sorry but I wasn't paying for him to go play with his friends, one of which got a degree to move to Arizona and be a bartender. Another went into pediatrics, once he saw what it was going to take to do a residency he went back and changed his major and is now a kindergarten teacher. Took him about 6 years and he'll be over 50 before his loans are repaid. I told my kid I would pay for him to go to the votech school but that would require him having a clue what he wanted to do. As it ended up he's in the military and I think if the opportunity is there he'll make a career of it.
But it isn't just the college kids. I personally know of two people (and I don't know that many people) in their mid to late 30's who were burning their unemployment rather than taking a lower paying job than they had even though unemployment was less than they could earn even working a minimum wage jobs, which I doubt either would have had to resort to. I grew up poor for the most part. I went through high school during the mid 70's and came out right in the middle of the dark days of Jimmy Carter. If you didn't earn you did without. I did a couple years at community college taking vocational type classes, automotive repair for the most part. I ended up delivering milk for a year or so, worked a 7-11 and ended up working for a chain of self service gas stations where I worked my way up to manager which was a decent paying gig with benefits. After about 4 years I could see the writing on the wall, went part time on the job and hit a 3 month technical school to learn to fix office machines. Not a dream job but you could go nearly anywhere in the world and get a job with benefits. I started out in 86 making 1250 a month and within 6 months was up to 1500 a month. Within 3 years I was making 2500 a month and by 92 when I decided to get the hell out of California I was making better than 50K a year. There was a lot of long hours, hard work and hustle involved in that but it shows you don't need a degree to make a good living. I could have done what I did without the tech school but it made it easier to get my foot in the door.
What I see now is the government making things too easy for people now. I can remember many friends being without a phone and times in their lives and they turned out fine. Now days the government will give you a cell phone and service that include texting. It's a joke. When my kid was still with his ex wife making about 26K a year plus military housing which included everything but telephone they were getting 7K tax refunds due to earned income and child care credits when he only paid in about a grand in taxes. His wife was too lazy to get a job but they still had a very comfortable living even without the big tax refunds. The joke is they qualified for food stamps if they had wanted to take them.

 

[snakeblitz33]

I think there is waay to big of a government safety net for Americans these days as well. Let some people struggle - those that are able to work should find jobs and try to work their way up. Farmers desperately need workers - and the only people that are willing to do it is illegals. Ship yards always need people, the oil industry is always begging qualified people to work for them. Same with large shipping companies. I have a few friends that are whining that they have no opportunities for jobs out there - but like you said, they are waiting for something to come along that will afford them the lifestyle that they are currently enjoying and more. There are opportunities out there for jobs. I took my opportunity to get an education and I am making the most of it. Granted, I didn't go to college to make 100k+ per year - I picked something that I enjoy doing, just because that was the opportunity presented to me.
The other thing is that I have college graduate friends that are still working for office depot, gas stations, and other minimum wage jobs who can't get a job in what they graduated in and whine about it to me all the time. I tell them to go find a job somewhere that they can work their way up - and it doesn't have to be somewhere that they got their degree in. Eventually things will come around. If I don't immediately get a job as a teacher, I will find work elsewhere temporarily - and I guarantee it won't be at a McDonalds. (more than likely my dad's taxidermy shop, but that is a skilled labor job with advancement anyways.)

 

[flower]

Hi Snake,
I have a nephew who always acted like he was about as dumb as a box of rocks, and just as lazy... he never graduated high school, He is 25 now, and he has a job and a nice little family, his baby boy is one yr old. I think our young people just grow up later, and are not ready for the world at 18 or 21. They eventually mature and lead productive lives. He wouldn't have to work so hard if he had gotten an education, he even failed his GED and he says he will try again. Most of the welfare folks are either very young, very sick, drug addicted, or loaded down with kids at too early of an age. Kids out of college don't really expect to start at the top and not work their way up. That is the perspective us older folks claim they want. You start sounding like your 80 years old...what's the big rant about anyway?
My grandparents said the exact same thing about my generation, and I'm sure that their grandparents said the same....Every older generation declares that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. As for me, I worry about my own life and let the world do whatever. I have three children...a daughter (35 yrs old) on welfare with tons of health issues and 6 kids. I have my son (34 yrs old) the middle child who is in management, graduated and went to college, and he has 5 kids and takes care of his family, the youngest (33 yr old) has one child, divorced and works as a telemarketer. They are all three from different brackets in society. They all take care of their own business and I visit the kids and enjoy my life. The kids are all grown and all came from the same home. They are all just fine.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Coming from what's considered an "inner city" school district by the state of Ohio, I can tell you a little about what and why. I'm 32, graduated in 1999. I would say of the 420 some odd kids I graduated with, maybe half currently have a job, and are paying their own way. The other half are government supported leeches. I call them that lovingly, because most of them growing up, saw Mom (and no Dad) live off the system like it WAS their job. When you see that growing up as a child, of course the majority of those people will follow the same path. Also, at least in Ohio, you are almost rewarded financially for having children, so of course women go out and sleep with anything and anyone, because worst case scenario, that's another check coming in every month.
I also think there is a certain lack of motivation when it comes to working. Like you said, back in the day, you may not have been skilled, but you could go out and get a labor job that payed well, gave you benefits, and put food on the table. Now a days, those jobs are non-existent. There are a number of reasons for that, but I think you can thank capitalism and the greed effect that has wreaked havoc at the corporate level. (See this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/02/ceo-pay-worker-pay_n_1471685.html )
The question becomes "why do I want to work hard, when I can get on social assistance that will pay me just as well, if not better than a real job?"
Therein lies the problem.

 

[acrylic51]

Wasn't beating on you Seth!!!! I agree somewhat with Clemson as well.... Maybe what the "newer" generation is missing is "pride"??? Being able to come home from a hard, honest days work and know when your head hits the pillow "you've earned it"!!!! Seems the younger want it quick an easy and don't honestly know what hard work is???

 

[ironeagle2006]

I have 2 very Close friends that were BOTH raised by a Single Parent on Welfare. One now owns 3 Resturants in the Chicago area the other one became a Medical Doctor. Just how did they Escape the cycle called their Mother Refused to let them BECOME trapped she Pushed them so hard it was not funny. Yet a man my Wife dated is now 33 has Never had a Full time Job still Lives at home with his Parents and all he does is stay in room and play Online Games. The reason his Parents Refuse to make HIM Grow UP.
Also Clemson until I was Injured with my TBI in 2000 I outworked many an OTR Driver twice my Age why I had Pride in my Job. I was the one that got the load thru the bad Weather when New Drivers are going its to bad and it was Barely Snowing. Threw tire Chains on Donner to get over it then when I got over it found out that the CA Dot had Closed it Behind me. Gave up weekends off so a Driver whose wife had just given birth could make it home. Stopped and helped people on the side of the road when I saw them broke down. Held a mans hand as he lay there Screaming let me Die for an Hour waiting on an Ambulance to get to us from over 40 miles away after he wiped out his Motorcycle and peeled himself like a Banana then when He died had the Brains to LIE to his mother that was a Nurse at the Hospital that was supposed to get him to tell her that his Last words where Tell my mother I love Her and I am Sorry. Clemson I saw more Crap on the Roads than I care to Remember and loved Every Second of the Time I was out there and if I could I would get right back out there as I have so much PRIDE and Respect for that Industry that I would give up anything to get back out there. That tell you anything how much I hate my Current Condition I find myself in. I would rather be in Hell anymore than on the Government dole but until they Fix my Brain I can not GET OFF IT.
After I received my TBI I did Everything I could to stay off of SSDI from Office work to trying to get my Nursing Degree trouble is no one wants an Office worker that could injure Co Workers when he has a Seizure that is so Severe he tends to break Arms of the People there to help him and with Nursing well lets just say Needles and me would not be a good mix I might shove one into a Heart or something.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006 http:///t/394734/questions-for-americans#post_3513625
I have 2 very Close friends that were BOTH raised by a Single Parent on Welfare. One now owns 3 Resturants in the Chicago area the other one became a Medical Doctor. Just how did they Escape the cycle called their Mother Refused to let them BECOME trapped she Pushed them so hard it was not funny. Yet a man my Wife dated is now 33 has Never had a Full time Job still Lives at home with his Parents and all he does is stay in room and play Online Games. The reason his Parents Refuse to make HIM Grow UP.
Also Clemson until I was Injured with my TBI in 2000 I outworked many an OTR Driver twice my Age why I had Pride in my Job. I was the one that got the load thru the bad Weather when New Drivers are going its to bad and it was Barely Snowing. Threw tire Chains on Donner to get over it then when I got over it found out that the CA Dot had Closed it Behind me. Gave up weekends off so a Driver whose wife had just given birth could make it home. Stopped and helped people on the side of the road when I saw them broke down. Held a mans hand as he lay there Screaming let me Die for an Hour waiting on an Ambulance to get to us from over 40 miles away after he wiped out his Motorcycle and peeled himself like a Banana then when He died had the Brains to LIE to his mother that was a Nurse at the Hospital that was supposed to get him to tell her that his Last words where Tell my mother I love Her and I am Sorry. Clemson I saw more Crap on the Roads than I care to Remember and loved Every Second of the Time I was out there and if I could I would get right back out there as I have so much PRIDE and Respect for that Industry that I would give up anything to get back out there. That tell you anything how much I hate my Current Condition I find myself in. I would rather be in Hell anymore than on the Government dole but until they Fix my Brain I can not GET OFF IT.
After I received my TBI I did Everything I could to stay off of SSDI from Office work to trying to get my Nursing Degree trouble is no one wants an Office worker that could injure Co Workers when he has a Seizure that is so Severe he tends to break Arms of the People there to help him and with Nursing well lets just say Needles and me would not be a good mix I might shove one into a Heart or something.
Look man, I'm not sure why you feel like I'm attacking you, cause I'm not.

 

[reefraff]

I am a ^$#%ered up mess but if I ran the system people like me would be put to work in some capacity. I can't stand or sit in a regular seated position for very long but give me a recliner, a telephone and a keyboard and I am pretty good. You can't tell me people like me couldn't work from home and do some of the work the feds are paying someone 30 or 40K a year for to help pay for my disability income. Even if a few people with my ability worked part time to do the work of a full time employee it's a good thing. In some cases someone might even gain the experience to get a private sector gig. Of course the SEIU would never allow that, might cost them a dues paying position.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/394734/questions-for-americans#post_3513671
I am a ^$#%ered up mess but if I ran the system people like me would be put to work in some capacity. I can't stand or sit in a regular seated position for very long but give me a recliner, a telephone and a keyboard and I am pretty good. You can't tell me people like me couldn't work from home and do some of the work the feds are paying someone 30 or 40K a year for to help pay for my disability income. Even if a few people with my ability worked part time to do the work of a full time employee it's a good thing. In some cases someone might even gain the experience to get a private sector gig. Of course the SEIU would never allow that, might cost them a dues paying position.
Yeah that's annoying. I had a former employee who worked really well for me, but she finally had some disability hearing about her vertigo or something like that, and all the sudden she wasn't allowed to work unless it was off the books. Lovely.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/394734/questions-for-americans#post_3513766
Yeah that's annoying. I had a former employee who worked really well for me, but she finally had some disability hearing about her vertigo or something like that, and all the sudden she wasn't allowed to work unless it was off the books. Lovely.
Vertigo is no joke. After my wreck I had it. It can happen by calcium flakes breaking off in the inner ear. In my case it only happened if I was laying down and turned my head to the side. They were able to correct it in my case. I couldn't imagine trying to stand during one of those episodes.

 

[grant778]

My woodshop teacher was telling us something like this. He was telling us that people drill into our minds college college college when you can still have a good life starting as an apprentice at a factory or as an apprentice to a luthier and work your way up.