Riddle me this- fallow DT from ich

slade1274

Member
My DT had a problem with ich, the fish are now in QT and all that's left in the DT is shrimp, crabs, starfish, and snails. I have done a bit of research on the ****** bug and its life cycle. If all treatments call for 3-4 weeks, why does the community recommend leaving the DT fallow for 6-8 weeks?
 

loopy101

Member
due to the fact of the life cycle of the parasite. there are many different stages of the critter so waiting for the 6-8 weeks might be over doing it a little bit but better safe then sorry!
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Going from Trophonts stage to Theronts stage is approximately 5 weeks. Leave one week more for the rouge and you should be good to go
 

slade1274

Member

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3046637
Going from Trophonts stage to Theronts stage is approximately 5 weeks. Leave one week more for the rouge and you should be good to go
Thanks for the feedback Joe- much respect.
Also much for Beth; hence my confusion. I hope she doesn't mind me clipping this from another thread:
Originally Posted by Beth

The “Bug”. What is it? How does it Work?
Ich has a multiple stage life cycle of approx. 2 wks at tropical aquarium temperatures
[77-80 degrees] during which time the parasite undergoes 4 phases:
1. The trophont stage is seen as the mature parasite attached to the fish, feeding off fish tissue. This has the appearance of salt-like grains often described by hobbyists as white spots or white dots, thus the common name of the disease, “White-Spot Disease”. What the hobbyist is actually seeing with these white dots is a protective covering, or cyst, which the parasite creates over itself as a means of protection. Parasite defense mechanism! As the parasite feeds it will grow in size. It is this growth or varying sizes of the trophont that may confuse the hobbyist to think that the infected fish is suffering from some other malady [such as lymphocysts]. The visible distinction between Ich, and some other problem is usually numbers. Left untreated, ich will multiply on the fish and usually cover the body—fins and body alike. [cycle timeframe: aprrox. 7 day stage]
2. The tomont stage occurs when the trophont matures after having fed on your fish for around a week. At this point, the parasite, engorged and well-fed on your fish, detaches its protective cystic covering, leaves the host fish and swims in the water column for several hours until it can find a place in the aquarium to settle. It will then attach itself to a surface in the aquarium: Sand, live rock and, perhaps even the surface of rocks where coral is attahced, or even the aquarium glass, filters, whatever. Once settled the cells within the cyst begin dividing to form more parasites [up to several hundred]. [cycle timeframe: several hours]
3. The tomite stage, are the products of the parasite reproducing. They become free-swimming in the aquarium as theronts. [cycle timeframe, approx 4 days at 77-80 degrees water temp].
4. The theront stage of ich are free-swimming protozoans that must locate a host fish within several hours, or die trying. This is the stage when fish become vulnerable to infection. The infection is transmitted through the water column.
She says two weeks for the life cycle; now I'm all for safe than sorry as margins of safety are a way of life for me, but there is a 2.5x discrepancy between the two accounts for the life cycle. Who out of two of the most trustworthy advisors is "right"? Bah- always better to take my own advice at times Patience is key in this hobby
... I've just got the nagging habit of beating the dead horse until concensus is reached and we all can live happily ever after. In other words; mixed messages hurt my head until they can be resolved.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
For what its worth
Info from a lecture by Julian Sprung I attended
Trophonts (paristic Stage) 3 to 7 days
Trophonts (free swimming stage) within 18 hours to to settle on substraight
Encystment (reproduction stage) 3 to 28 days
Free swmming (Theronts stage ) 24 to 48 hrs to find and attach to a fish
 

slade1274

Member
Thanks Joe, more info is always better; but most times raise more questions.
Now that I take it past the fallow DT topic and put my project manager hat on to build the fish treatment timelines suggested....
Hypo- osmotic shock
As this is effective during the encystment, is it safe to assume that the bug "drowns" in itself early on in the reproduction? Typical consensus on treatments for hypo have clearly stated 3 weeks. Taking into account that the parasite can hang out for a week in Hypo till it drops off- that would only give the osmotic shock process a couple weeks to be effective in the stage that can last up to four....
Copper-
Again, typical 3 week treatment consensus. As this eradicates the free swimmers when launching to find a host; it would lead me to believe that the fish would only need treatment for the ~week during the parasite stage. Once the bug drops off for reproduction; the copper will eradicate anything seeking the host fish.
Again, just looking for clarification as both treatments have their pros/cons. Also, it seems from my research that tangs seem to be a bit sensitive to hypo and angels to copper. As I hate when a fish gets lost in QT a day before treatment was "due to be up", I'm always trying to get an understanding of just how long each treatment actually takes......
I have Three QT tanks, 10, 30, 50. Just trying to put together the best bet for a long and happy hobby. I bumped up to a 210 this year from my previous 75 and 150 and have had much more problems getting this one settled than I did with the others.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Hypo- osmotic shock
As this is effective during the encystment, is it safe to assume that the bug "drowns" in itself early on in the reproduction? Typical consensus on treatments for hypo have clearly stated 3 weeks. Taking into account that the parasite can hang out for a week in Hypo till it drops off- that would only give the osmotic shock process a couple weeks to be effective in the stage that can last up to four....
WOW you are assuming I have more then one moment of clarity a day
Actual there is no reproduction, I assume you mean in the reproduction stage.
Hypo is effective as long as you keep your tank in the proper salinity range. If you keep your QT/HT at hypo levels for six weeks ( important because we do not know positively what stage of the parasite was introduce into our tanks) you are assuring yourself that all of the parasites in their encystment stage have been exposed to a close to equal pressure differential and can not divide
Copper-
Again, typical 3 week treatment consensus. As this eradicates the free swimmers when launching to find a host; it would lead me to believe that the fish would only need treatment for the ~week during the parasite stage. Once the bug drops off for reproduction; the copper will eradicate anything seeking the host fish.
Copper
Again we must take into consideration what stage the parasite is in when we start treatments. By the time we notice white spots on our fish there can already be parasites in the reproductive stage, which can last up to 4 weeks.
I would think,( “scale less Fish) would be more prone to irritation to copper
 

slade1274

Member
Great discussion... I have more questions but I'll give you a day to recover
Check back when well rested for continued dialog.
 

slade1274

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3046899
WOW you are assuming I have more then one moment of clarity a day
Actual there is no reproduction, I assume you mean in the reproduction stage.
Hypo is effective as long as you keep your tank in the proper salinity range. If you keep your QT/HT at hypo levels for six weeks ( important because we do not know positively what stage of the parasite was introduce into our tanks) you are assuring yourself that all of the parasites in their encystment stage have been exposed to a close to equal pressure differential and can not divideCopper
Again we must take into consideration what stage the parasite is in when we start treatments. By the time we notice white spots on our fish there can already be parasites in the reproductive stage, which can last up to 4 weeks.
I would think,( “scale less Fish) would be more prone to irritation to copper

Remember now that the fallow DT and the fish treatment has now been decoupled. My original question has been addressed to my satisfaction with the information you provided on the life cycle; particularly that the encystment stage can last up to 28 days. This was new information to me, as the baseline for discussion regarding ****** has always been Beth’s sticky in the disease forum stating a life cycle of 2 weeks. Now I understand that the cycle has a broader range “from” two weeks to 5 weeks; depending on how the reproduction stage goes.
This is where I shifted to treatment of the fish. For that, the given is the fish was removed from the problem environment and put in a “sterile” QT/HT. So we can assume that the parasite life cycle stage is known as the fish is brining it into the aquarium at that point. Knowing that the two treatments deal with the parasite in different cycles; hypo in encystment and copper in free swimming; I was trying to put the timing in my head as to the actual time needed for each treatment. In another post, your likened the hypo treatment to the parasite “drowning in itself” without the osmotic pressure differential needed to divide. My question is how long that process takes in that stage. If I understand that it is not an immediate result; then I can see why the recommendation you put forth is for 6 weeks of hypo in order to catch the 28day potential for the encystment stage.
For Copper, am I to understand that it kills during the theronts stage? If so, once the Trophonts stage is complete, it should be impossible for the fish to be “re-infected” at proper copper concentration. So if we assume again that the parasite was only introduced to the QT with the fish, one would think that 7-10 days in the environment with proper treatment dose concentration to get through the Trophonts stage would be sufficient in a copper environment; at which time you could remove the fish from the copper environment. I’m not trying to short cut, but rather minimize overkill because I don’t like keeping a fish at therapeutic copper levels do to adverse reactions and would like to minimize exposure.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
So we can assume that the parasite life cycle stage is known as the fish is brining it into the aquarium at that point.
Not necessarily so any water transferred via net or the fish themselves can hypothetically contain trophonts, encystment and theronts and can infect your QT/HT in these stages
Division can occur at anytime over the 28-day span and only during division does the parasite require fluid transfer via osmotic pressure differential hence the need for the 6-week hypo time line.
As far as I know copper works well to eliminate ****** organisms in their free-swimming stage, it is not as effective on the Cryptocaryon trophonts that burrow deeply into the tissues of fish. That being said and not knowing if we introduce ick parasite just as it was entering encystment stage IMO copper needs to be used for 28 days.
PLEASE REMEMBER these time lines are what I believe to be accurate after researching the life cycle of ick. I do not want anyone to take just one persons opinion with out doing their own research and coming to their own conclusion
 

slade1274

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3047641
PLEASE REMEMBER these time lines are what I believe to be accurate after researching the life cycle of ick. I do not want anyone to take just one persons opinion with out doing their own research and coming to their own conclusion
Exactly! hence the dead horse beating. I was so interested in your opinions and why mostly because I have not had very much luck defeating that parasite with the recommended treatments for the recommended time frames. Your recommendations seem to be two to three weeks longer than "typical" durations laid out in the FAQ and treatments section. Thanks for the time and advice!
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by slade1274
http:///forum/post/3047726
Exactly! hence the dead horse beating. I was so interested in your opinions and why mostly because I have not had very much luck defeating that parasite with the recommended treatments for the recommended time frames. Your recommendations seem to be two to three weeks longer than "typical" durations laid out in the FAQ and treatments section. Thanks for the time and advice!
So I challenge you to post your own time lines your own observations your own opinions and conclusions so we all can be better informed hobbyists
 

slade1274

Member
Well, I've been a member of this site for 4 years and still asking advice on said subject; so that would indicate that with all the threads I've read (I do much more searching and reading than posting) my current methods from past research have not been successful with the set up of this tank. Maybe I've been lucky with the last two setups in that I've never had to battle ich in the DT..... And that I brought it in either on some live rock not properly managed or a CUC addition that was not quarantined. Hence the two QT tanks and one hospital tank that remain cycled at all times to make sure this doesn't happen again.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
What my challenge to you and other hobbyists is simply this. Document your methods of treating the ick parasite when you need to. Time line, method, dosage (if chemicals are used) stress on fish outcome accompanied by pics if applicable. Ick is a problem almost all hobbyists will encounter at some point. Having our own core of information by our members can at least give us a sounding board for what seems to work and what does not
 
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