Rusty angel and Niger trigger forming a "gang"

[aviator]

Hi all,
We have a 180gal tank that has been up and running for some time (9 mos) with only a niger trigger, a damsel and a rusty angel in it. We have recently added two picasso clowns and two days ago we added an atlantic blue tang. One clown died the first night, the other made it and is doing great, health-wise. The tang did just fine in quarintine for a week so we moved him into his new home and all hell broke loose..
The Rusty Angel and the trigger get a long famously, but seem to be teaming up and harassing the clown and the tang, keeping them pinned in one corner of the tank, which is a real problem because the tang has developed what I call 'stress ich' and needs to be cleaned by the huge cleaner shrimp we have in the tank (the ich developed 48 hours AFTER he was put in the tank). when the tang DOES manage to make a break for it and head to the cleaner, he gets cleaned, but the moment the trigger or the Angel realize he's out of the corner, they chase him back and he never gets a full cleaning. He is a hearty swimmer and is still eating very well so we want to intervine
There are several other fish in the tank, a lawnmower blenny, a scooter blenny, and a diamond goby (and, as my daughter says 'a gillion snails!!') - none of which get harassed in the least. my guess is that these are all on the bottom, so aren't really the same 'class' of swimmer-fish)
We have tried re-arranging the tank to break up any territories that might have been established - that didn't work. and have even tried unsuccessfully to retrieve the tang from the tank to put in a different tank - he's just too fast.
So what else can I do to get this guy better? and is there anything I can do to stop the bullying? will that end on it's own eventually?He's quite a bit smaller than the trigger and the Angel.
Thanks for the replies!

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aviator http:///t/391653/rusty-angel-and-niger-trigger-forming-a-gang#post_3474699
Hi all,
We have a 180gal tank that has been up and running for some time (9 mos) with only a niger trigger, a damsel and a rusty angel in it. We have recently added two picasso clowns and two days ago we added an atlantic blue tang. One clown died the first night, the other made it and is doing great, health-wise. The tang did just fine in quarintine for a week so we moved him into his new home and all hell broke loose..
The Rusty Angel and the trigger get a long famously, but seem to be teaming up and harassing the clown and the tang, keeping them pinned in one corner of the tank, which is a real problem because the tang has developed what I call 'stress ich' and needs to be cleaned by the huge cleaner shrimp we have in the tank (the ich developed 48 hours AFTER he was put in the tank). when the tang DOES manage to make a break for it and head to the cleaner, he gets cleaned, but the moment the trigger or the Angel realize he's out of the corner, they chase him back and he never gets a full cleaning. He is a hearty swimmer and is still eating very well so we want to intervine
There are several other fish in the tank, a lawnmower blenny, a scooter blenny, and a diamond goby (and, as my daughter says 'a gillion snails!!') - none of which get harassed in the least. my guess is that these are all on the bottom, so aren't really the same 'class' of swimmer-fish)
We have tried re-arranging the tank to break up any territories that might have been established - that didn't work. and have even tried unsuccessfully to retrieve the tang from the tank to put in a different tank - he's just too fast.
So what else can I do to get this guy better? and is there anything I can do to stop the bullying? will that end on it's own eventually?He's quite a bit smaller than the trigger and the Angel.
Thanks for the replies!
Yes.. But not the way you want it to. Sorry.
I would try again to retrieve the tang and get him in a hospital tank for treatment. I would think that the DT has Ich now, but the other tank mates are not as stressed to show it. So IDK if you want to get everyone out and put in QT and then go fallow in the DT. Kinda a tricky spot you got here.
How much did you rearrange the rock to break up the territories?? Maybe that would help to do again after you treat the tang and try to reintroduce him. Is this a FOWLR tank?
Keep us posted.

 

[aviator]

Right now there is a single anemone in the tank, so technically no, it's not a FOWLR tank. I have to admit it's frustrating to have a new fish in QT for a week and do wonderfully, only to have it 'ich up' once it's in the main tank! ARGH!!
We re-arranged the rock completley. every single piece was moved as we wanted to give the rearrangement the best possible change to work. luckily, we only have a single carpet anemone in the tank right now, so the rearrangement wasn't too dofficult to do.
I'm afraid you are right, the whole tank has ich now. really, we now have two problems:
1) stressed tang
2) everyone now has ich
looks like it's time to go fishin' and get everyone into the hospital tank ASAP. I know what I'm doing tonight. getting them all out, then putting them all back may solve the territory issue as well... how can I treat the water in the DT for ich with the anemone in it?

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
looks like it's time to go fishin' and get everyone into the hospital tank ASAP. I know what I'm doing tonight. getting them all out, then putting them all back may solve the territory issue as well... how can I treat the water in the DT for ich with the anemone in it?
I would take the anemone back to a LFS and trade it for credit (sorry, not what you wanted to hear) .. All that is needed to treat your DT is to go fishless (fallow) for 6 weeks.
How big of a QT do you have? I am in a bit of a tough spot with my QT... I have a Flame Fin Tang in a 10g QT and I keep getting a bit of an ammonia spike, even though I cycled the QT. Now, I am doing almost daily water changes to keep the levels down. Just a heads up for you to look out for. To tell you the truth, I was thinking about adding him to the DT and not treating with hypo (Good idea to treat all new fish as if they have ich). But after reading this tread I will keep him in QT.

 

[sweatervest13]

Well, I guess you could keep the anemone... What type of lighting do you have??

 

[aviator]

3 250W metal halides, 4 54W actinics. This is going to end up as a reef tank - assuming we can get everyone to get along and be healthy. We're not adding anything else until we can get this tackled obviously. BUT: we do have our sights on corals, polyps, etc...

 

[aviator]

We are definatley keeping him. him going back to the LFS isn't really an option. Worst case is we will put him in our 55 gal tank.
Our QT tank is rather small. it's a 25gal biocube - but it's been retrofitted with LED's because we got tired of dealing with dead CF bulbs. When it was originally stood up, we didn't thing we would ever have more than one fish in there at a time. looks like the 'ich ward' is about to get crowded!

 

[mr. limpid]

You know what was the first problem, you didn't Qt your tang long enough. That being said sweatervest is correct you need to QT all your fish and treat for ick, and leave your DT fishless for 6 to 8 weeks. The only problem is that is a lot of fish to treat at once, you mentioned you had a 55 gal, this may be your solution. I put all your rock and inverts in 180 and all fish in 55. Your 25 gal could house the tang and clown alone so they wont get attacked by the gang. Good news after the ick has been cured you can add fish back in by order of aggression. Good Luck

 

[aviator]

I guess I thought a week was plenty long. How long is 'long enough' for a QT? I've used a week for every single fish I have and have caught ich twice in quaritine, treated, gave another week once all symptoms were gone then acclimated to their perminant hime.. I've never had a fish go through a 1 week QT and not exhibit at least SOME signs of a disease - if they had one. How long SHOULD I be QT'ing the new guys?
I shudder at the thought of tearing down both the 180 AND the 55. the 55 has been established for years and is so perfectly stable and healthy that I would entertain all other options before I broke this tank down and trashed it's natural ballance like that (not to mention it's fully stocked with fish already). I don't mean to sound hard headed - just leary of destroying two different tanks at once like that.
You seem to think that the 25 wouldn't be large enough for a QT for all the fish in the 180, even under close supervision and daily water changes that a hospital tank requires, is this correct? or does it have less to do with water quality and more with 'crowding' already cranky fish together? I do have another biocube in storage I can press into service. I just don't want to have to monitor water quality on both tanks at the same time. It makes more sense to connect the two tanks together (like a sump configuration kinda) and treat all at once, putting a seperator in the tank to keep the trigger and angel away from the rest. do you think that would work or would I be better off to completley seperate the fish into two tanks?
I keep telling myself I will sell these two biocubes, but I'll be darned if they aren't the handiest little tanks to have for stuff like this! Not the greatest stands, not the greatest filters, not the greatest lights, but for stuff like this, they sure are hard to beat!

 

[sweatervest13]

IDK if you need to do anything to the 55g. All is good with it. Right??
I think Mr. Limpid was saying that with the larger fish you have it may be better to use the 55g if it was free and available. But you work with what you have got.
How big are these fish?? And what exactly do you have in the 180 now? You may need to use both cubes.

 

[mr. limpid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aviator http:///t/391653/rusty-angel-and-niger-trigger-forming-a-gang#post_3474737
I guess I thought a week was plenty long. How long is 'long enough' for a QT? I've used a week for every single fish I have and have caught ich twice in quaritine, treated, gave another week once all symptoms were gone then acclimated to their perminant hime.. I've never had a fish go through a 1 week QT and not exhibit at least SOME signs of a disease - if they had one. How long SHOULD I be QT'ing the new guys?
I QT fish for 3 weeks, because I also have a tank full of fish and don't want 1 fish get the rest ill. Plus I don't have QT space for every fish in my DT. Some more advise have a bottle of Amqul + or Prime handy if ammonia gets out of control.
I shudder at the thought of tearing down both the 180 AND the 55. the 55 has been established for years and is so perfectly stable and healthy that I would entertain all other options before I broke this tank down and trashed it's natural ballance like that (not to mention it's fully stocked with fish already). I don't mean to sound hard headed - just leary of destroying two different tanks at once like that.
You seem to think that the 25 wouldn't be large enough for a QT for all the fish in the 180, even under close supervision and daily water changes that a hospital tank requires, is this correct? or does it have less to do with water quality and more with 'crowding' already cranky fish together? I do have another biocube in storage I can press into service. I just don't want to have to monitor water quality on both tanks at the same time. It makes more sense to connect the two tanks together (like a sump configuration kinda) and treat all at once, putting a seperator in the tank to keep the trigger and angel away from the rest. do you think that would work or would I be better off to completley seperate the fish into two tanks?
I would seperate the two groups since they don't get along. Putting them in a small tank together would just make matters worse. Since they are sick would surely cause death to your tang.
I keep telling myself I will sell these two biocubes, but I'll be darned if they aren't the handiest little tanks to have for stuff like this! Not the greatest stands, not the greatest filters, not the greatest lights, but for stuff like this, they sure are hard to beat!
it's always good to have back ups, I have 1 more 10gal tank just in case I found that 1 fish I have to have and I have 1 in my QT at the moment, LOL.

 

[aviator]

Here are the specs on the 180. Keep in mind everything was just fine until we added the tang. We lost a picasso clown the day after acclimation (that hurt the wallet). Other than that, this tank has always been healthy.
1 Atlantic blue tang (1.5 inches) 2 days in tank
1 Rusty Angle (3 inches) 120 days in tank
1 Niger trigger (3 inches) 120 days in tank
1 Diamond Gobey (3 inches) 60 days
1 Scooter Blenny (2 inches) 60 days
1 Lawmower Blenny (3 inches) 120 days
1 zebra Damsel (that is impossible to catch) 150 days
1 Picasso clown (mate didn't make it) 30 days
1 Skunk cleaner shrimp (3+ inches) 2 days (added for tang)
TONS of little baby snails - 150+ days
1 carpet anemone - 60 days
Lights are 3 250W MH 14000K, 4 54W CF's
filtration is via 40 Gal sump and 80gpm main pump on corner overflows.
water motion = 2 large Koralias + main pump exhaust
Light/temp monitored and controlled via custom touchscreen system.
temp maintained at 76 - 76.5
NO2: 0
NO3: 0
PO4: 0.0 - 0.1
Ammonia: 0
Calcium: 400 with spikes during supplement
Ph: 8.2 steady
Salt: 1.021 via hygrometer
Alk: 9-11
Feeding 2 times a day. small pellets in the morning, mysis cube in the evening. Seaweed clipped for grazing.

 

[mr. limpid]

On your clowns they were both probably males, it takes time for one to turn into female, unless you bought a mated pair, then yes ouch to loose one.
Three tips your temp. is kinda on the cool side average temp. in big blue for reefs are between 78 - 82; I would get refractor meter you'll be amazed on how off those swing arms are; provide more variety in their diet, like formula 2 and angel/butterfly formula, squid, plankton, etc..

 

[aviator]

Thanks Mr. Limpid. With the exception of the occasional "treat" of like plankton, the mysis seems to be what they're interested and prefer. I've tried several other foods, but neither of those, so I will give them a shot. All the others that I have tried just went to waste it seemed. The mysis really gets them hopping at feeding time!
On the positive side, the clown's weren't mated.... but my remaining one seems a little lost by himself - we plan on replacing the one we lost once we get through this crisis.

 

[aviator]

unbeknownst to me, my wife decided to dose the entire 180 gallon with formalin/Malachite green yesterday while I was at work.

Luckily, there was less than 1/2 dose in the bottle, so it was very dilute. The upside is that it appears that the tang is doing much better. I'm not sure what the long term effects will be for the inverts, but now all I can do is wait and see.

I love the fact that she was worried enough to take action and am grateful for her efforts. let's hope this works!
There didn't seem to be much harassing going on last night, maybe the 'newness' of the tang is wearing off. He was able to swim the entire length of the tank for the first time last night without being harassed or chased back to one corner.

 

[mr. limpid]

The only problem with ick is seams to go away, but it didn't it is its reproduction cycle and will come back ten fold. As for the Malachite green, a fresh water fungi and parasites, not really for salt water. It claims to be for salt water but there are a lot of meds with that claim. I would do water changes I'm not sure what effect it will have on your inverts and anemone.

 

[aviator]

That's my concern as well. I'm afraid it's just cycling. I am really surprised none of the other tank inhabitants are showing ANY signs yet. This morning the tang was completely clean and lively. he ate like a pig and was playing in the powerhead jets all morning. I thought I would see more signs of stress that this. maybe it's just not a bad infection? maybe the cleaner is doing a better job than I thought? could it be something other than ich?

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aviator http:///t/391653/rusty-angel-and-niger-trigger-forming-a-gang#post_3474895
That's my concern as well. I'm afraid it's just cycling. I am really surprised none of the other tank inhabitants are showing ANY signs yet. This morning the tang was completely clean and lively. he ate like a pig and was playing in the powerhead jets all morning. I thought I would see more signs of stress that this. maybe it's just not a bad infection? maybe the cleaner is doing a better job than I thought? could it be something other than ich?
Sounds like Ich... But I am sure it is just going thru its life cycle. Mr. Limpid is right, it will come back 10 fold. Check out some threads in the disease section. I am not saying that this is the way to go at all, but some people just choose to live with Ich in their tanks. You can do some things to make it possible. Me personally I would set up a couple of QT's and treat with hypo, and let the DT go fallow. That was you can add the fish back into the DT in order of aggressiveness. My $.02

 

[aviator]

Agreed. I set up the biocubes last night in preparation for treatment. Better to treat now than later.

 

[mr. limpid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aviator http:///t/391653/rusty-angel-and-niger-trigger-forming-a-gang#post_3474895
That's my concern as well. I'm afraid it's just cycling. I am really surprised none of the other tank inhabitants are showing ANY signs yet. This morning the tang was completely clean and lively. he ate like a pig and was playing in the powerhead jets all morning. I thought I would see more signs of stress that this. maybe it's just not a bad infection? maybe the cleaner is doing a better job than I thought? could it be something other than ich?
This is not playing, he is doing it for water passing over its gills for more oxygen. Which means there is free swimming ick in the water column blocking its gills. Not good. Good thing you have already decided to treat, sooner than later.