Scaring away potential hobbist?

[jdl/dayton]

Yes people do stupid things sometimes, but I see a lot of preaching instead of helping from those who are "In the Know"
The "unacceptable" line was used in a earlier post recently by one of the monitors who thinks that salt needs to mix for 48 hours before adding. Recommended would be a better term. I get the feeling that unless a person has a salinity tester that costs at least 100 dollars, makes thier own food up fresh and lets their salt mix for two days they are somehow inferior
Sorry to go off on a bit of a rant, but I was a bit annoyed by what I percieved as arrogant comments I sometimes read by those who are supposed to help. (Hypo would be another area)
For those who feel they are experts ask yourselves this. If you were thinking about getting a saltwater aquarium would you be
scared off by what you read here?
This is not rocket science, but it seems we are trying are best to make it that way.

 

[clarkiiboi]

I personally have not been offended/scared off by anything posted. This is just all experience, how this person does it compared to how another person does it. Everyone has their own experience, I dont think anyone here means to come off as arrogant or superior. It looks as though you are at the moderators? I have had no worries with any of them, they have helped me as a fellow hobbiest, and made me feel welcome as one.

 

[beth]

Well, since it was me making those recommendations, I suppose you’re directing your concerns to me. To answer your question I’d say this: If I were considering keeping SW tanks and serious about getting into this hobby [a hobby that is expensive to the hobbyist as well as one that effects the well-being of living organisms] that, based on the recommendations that I seek by querying people in the hobby, I would have to decide for myself if the hobby was too “scary” for me, or if I wanted to put forth my best effort and learn as much as I can, do things right as much as can. [But, anyway, what is scary about aging saltwater for 48 hours, or offering your fish fresh foods??]
What I would have given if I had had the access that new hobbyist have now to other experienced hobbyists and the vast amounts of info available via the internet and written literature. The time, frustration, repeated failures at the expense of living creatures---not to mention my wallet---could have been spared if such existed when I began keeping tanks. I learn new things every day from those who have more knowledge and experience than I. And, no matter the delivery, I am grateful for sources of knowledge and access. I don’t consider myself an expert either.
Hobbyists don’t have to follow anyone’s advise. I assume that when people ask for advise or seek information by coming here, that they want that advise. I’m not going to say it is ok to mix up your salt water for a few hours, because its really not ok to do that. I’ve never flamed or demeaned anyone for being inexperienced. SWF.com administrators are pretty tough on mods here in that respect, so I wouldn’t have lasted here for nearly 3 yrs if I were arrogant. I give the best advise that I know how to give. If I did less than that, it would be a disservice to anyone who listened to me. And, as I said, I learn new things all the time, my best advise today could well be obsolete a yr from now. Can only give it my best.

 

[shadow678]

I rather disagree that there isn't a slight aire of arrogance and a sense of an elitist clique going on with many of the veterans of this board. I know at least one admin has to know of a prime example of a veteran of this board who was EXTREMELY rude in a personal attack against me for suggesting a larger aquarium for a fish, because the thread was removed. The original thread that started the arguement can also be referenced on this issue, as many people seemed to agree with the person that attacked me. Just the same as it is not scary to let salt sit for 48hours(I personally only let it sit for a few hours and have never had any problem), it is also just as simple to house fish in a slightly larger aquarium, as many of you have said that larger aquariums tend to be easier to keep. Just as you are entitled to give advice, so are the rest of us, and yet I was chastised for giving mine. Giving advice doesn't have to be done in a rude manner, regardless of the advice. I do not know what started this issue, and therefor cannot speak on whether this particular advice was given in any sort of condescending manner, but I have witnessed it many times, so it's not that uncommon. If you wish, you can look at it this way:you are entitled to your opinion, and just as you are not required to GIVE any information on a subject, the person asking isn't asking to be reprimanded, either, so if you are going to respond(and it is NOT a necessity for you to respond, so if you feel you can't do it in a kind manner, just don't post, that is also easy) then do so in a courteous manner. But, as everyone else likes to point out when they disagree, this is all "just my opinion".

 

[bigbonedee]

Listen , I will take Beth and Terry and Anthem and all others who want to give free advice wether it comes with an attitude or a slap on the head or whatever. I dont come here to be treated nice and neither should anybody else. You come here to get free but most importantly accurate and helpful info.
I dont know anybody on this board personally and dont know what problems they have at home or in their lives so I am just happy when I get a response from these people period.
I enjoy their posts and thats that. half the time all this info is repetitious and available on the archives anyway. So if you dont want attitude then might as well go and do your own searching instead of expecting someone to come serve you an answer on a platter and then you want service with a smile on top of it. Get real man!!!!!!!

 

[jdl/dayton]

Keeping a saltwater aquarium does not have to be hard, but it sure seems that we are trying our best to make it that way.
It was not my intention to be nasty or rude. Suggestions for those who ask are greatly appreciated I am sure. All I am saying is that no one knows for a fact what is correct. Merely what they believe is correct. Big difference. Sometimes it is best to not be so rigid in ones opinions.
Anyone remember when it was ok to use regular old water?
How about having an undergravel filter?
When a swing arm sg meter was fine?
When a 55 gallon was a big tank?
Running copper was pretty routine treatment
How about in another 10 years?
How did you ever get by using R/O? You will kill them
How can you trust that refractometer? Only accurate to 4 decimals
125 gallon? Do they still make those?
I can not believe you are still using a wet/dry?
Running hypo was pretty routine treatment.
See my point?

 

[beth]

In my way of thinking, trying to take short cuts, or trying to do things the way we did them 15 yrs ago, is what makes the hobby hard. The tank I have now is almost maintenance free compared to what I had just 4 yrs ago! The practices I use now in terms of feeding, water changes, QT, etc., makes my life a lot easier, rather harder or scarier. I worry little about having to rip my tank apart to get a sick fish out, or that a new fish is going to wipe out my whole tank. I spend about $5 a month on fresh foods, instead of $10 on processed foods. When I do a water change, none of the fish/corals go into shock or stress because my water was just mixed up and tossed into the tank. I don't have to haul buckets, pumps and siphoning hoses out every other weekend.
There are a lot of options about how to do things, or how to set a tank up, but there are a lot of facts too. There are “best” ways to do things. People asking for help or for opinions, are usually seeking better ways. This is an evolving hobby, and aquarists are ingenious about coming up with improvements.
Also, some people just get upset because they are not following the "better practices" and resent hearing that what they are doing is not best, or even that what they do is inadequate. Sorry about that, but…..oh well.

 

[jdl/dayton]

Last reply here. Hey at least it made for an interesting chat.
All I am saying is that not everyone has your dedication to the details. This does not make them bad people nor does it mean that their system is unacceptable. It depends on what they are keeping. Is my way adaquate for a reef. No, but I do not keep a reef. If I had the time to keep one running well I would get one, but I do not. Hense I do not have a reef.
Here are my 4 basic suggestions I would give a beginner...
1. Change less water, but do it more frequently. My case 10% weekly.
2. Feed less when you feed, but feed more times a day. My case about 4 times a day. (Small portions) Fish are opportunistic and not designed to binge. Well except for the gulpers (Groupers, Lion's etc.) of which I have none.
3. Low bioload...I try to keep my tank at about 1" of fish for every 8 gallons. Saves on a lot of the headaches with disease and water quaility.
4. Stay out of the pet store. No casual visits unless I know I have excess capacity in my aquarium.

 

[shadow678]

Dee, your response in particular points out the kind of harsh environment I have seen here on occasion. I am not arguing the fact that much of the advice here is good, and that it should be followed. It is the presentation of the advice that could use some work. You are in no way obligated to respond in a rude manner. I personally would rather someone simply suggest a good reference book than talk down to me like I was a piece of garbage for not knowing everything about the hobby. I actually very much agree with you that people that have questions should first search the archives and read past threads about the subject, but in all reality, how many of us had done that the first time we had a question? Responding to a post is not a "service" because that would imply a payment in return. Responding is a "courtesy", and should be done in a somewhat courteous manner. Nobody comes here to be called an idiot. (Except, perhaps, for those like Mr.Bubbles) What happened to the old addage, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything"? Nobody is asking you personally to respond, so don't treat it like a nuisance. If it bothers you that much, don't respond, plain and simple. The last thing that new hobbyists, who may already be thinking that getting into the hobby was a bad idea, need is for people to sit and yell at them like a child. Those that may have beened turned away just may have been able to discover something new about the hobby that would have made it easier on all of us, you never know. The learning in this hobby is primarily based on a mass collection of experiences, what works and what doesn't, so it is to ALL of our benefit to keep as many people in the hobby as possible so they can help with the input. And if they ignore the advice given, has it hurt us any, or is it just a matter of pride for us that someone didn't listen? If they turn down your advice, they will simply learn the hard way and realize you were correct later on. We can't save them all, but we can at least attempt to do so in a dignified manner.

 

[beth]

All these complaints are rather vague, and harsh to boot. I don't know who you are talking about or who has been so rude, or who has made people feel like idiots just because they haven't advanced in the hobby.
Its nice to be able to complain about mods, but to me all this seems like generalized stabs wo any real target. I certainly haven't seen anyone acting the way you describe, Shadow.
In any case, I suppose mods who are on the BB a lot, like myself, may get cranky once and awhile, however, I don't consider myself an arrogant elitist, or rude and demeaning to others.
This topic could continue ad nauseam, so lets just conclude here. We can all say we have food for thought.

 

[thakid2u]

I think the BIGGEST Issue here was the Fact that, I think Beth maybe, ( I responded to the actual Post) said something was Totally Unacceptable. I dont think we needed to start a drawn out issue about this. I didnt agree with how Beth worded this either and I stated my point on that Post. As far as reading something on this post about not coming here to be treated nice......WELLLLLLLL that is a little thing called RESPECT. If I didnt wanna be treated as an adult or Nice I would goto the AOL TEEN CHAT ROOMS. (No offense.) lol.....ALSO I POSTED A THREAD CALLED REMEMBERING THE GOOD OLD DAYS or something like that on the New Hobbiest Board.......Read this and I think it says most of all this post in a general point of view.
Beth I dont know you and you didnt directly do anything to me. I think it was more a choice of words and that is your choice. I am not losing sleep over it, the only reason I even replied to that post was just to let you know that it isnt "TOTALLY" unacceptable.

 

[beth]

"I do mix the salt in a bucket with current tank water and let it sit for a while."
This is what you guys are moaning over? LOL Funny, how eclipse never complained a bit?!
If you read my response beyond looking for a reason to complain about a mod, you may have gotten a clue that I was somewhat bewildered over what eclipse was saying. To me, eclipse was saying that she/he mixed salt with some tank water in a bucket and let it sit. Meaning no mixing or aeration...just water + salt sitting in the bucket. That is why I said, "The fashion in which you are doing water changes is totally unacceptable [unless you left something out??]. "
To me, it is unacceptable. But hey, I have a good friend, a former mod here as a matter of fact, who mixes salt water by adding salt to water, swishes it around and bit, and in to tank it goes. I rail him every time I hear about it…yet, he smiles and does his own thing. I have a great deal of respect for him and his skills in many hobby areas….but not in mixing up salt water, obviously.
If eclipse was offended, then I’d explain my POV. At that point the problem would have been resolved. But since eclipse said nothing, I don’t know if he/she was offended. I also don’t know what eclipse exactly meant by “let it sit for awhile”. But, if it means what I thought it meant…it is unacceptable.

 

[broomer5]

In my opinion - It's the attention to the details that lead to success.
Failing to pay attention to the fine points, is usually what causes us problems with our tanks.
I've said this before, I'll say it again.
If 9 people reply to a member's question - all stating the exact same thing, and 1 person disagrees .... this does not mean that 9 people are right and the 1 person is wrong.
It simply means that 9 people agree on something, and 1 person does not. It also means that 10 people took the time to respond to the thread - that's all.
How each of us decide if these responses are valid options is our own choice - only our choice. Take it or leave it.
But back to the details.
If someone asks a question or states a technique/method they use in this hobby - and it's different from our own method - many of us will post what we think is better, and offer a reason why we feel that way. Not just state our choice because we've choosen to do something in a particular fashion - but why we believe it's a better approach.
The stuff we can see is easy to discuss. The stuff we can't see is much more difficult.
Mixing saltmix and freshwater, then just pouring it in the tank - I'd consider this a "critical" point of the hobby, and well worth a good discussion. You rarely see water chemistry, and if you do, something is normally way out of whack. Usually we only test for the results - and go from there. Letting it aerate and fully mix for 24-48 hours is a detail. An IMPORTANT detail in many people's opinion. You allow the salt, minerals, solids, trace elements and other ions to fully mix and become soluable/stable in the freshwater. You allow time for the gasses in solution to reach equalibrium with the atmosphere, you allow the temperature to line out and you insure the salinity is stable.
DETAILS.
Beth, any moderator AND any experienced member should be firm when replying back with this sort of information. It may be an opinion to some, but it can easily be backed up with solid repeatable facts. Giving a firm answer is not demeaning - it's giving a firm answer.
It IS the detail that needs our attention.
Each variable in our tank has an affect on the others.
When you see the same questions, and same problems that occur with people's tanks - it's very clear to me that people do not pay attention to the fine details of the hobby.
Rocket science - nope - that has to do with propelling heavy objects to overcome the affects of gravity. Physics and aerodynamics, along with chemistry, mathmatics and astrophysics..
Saltwater fish and reef tank keeping certainly involves the need for scientific methodology. It centers around marine biology/botany, both organic and inorganic chemistry, hydraulics, physics, geology, hydrology, solar/light data, nutrient import/nutrient export, animal parasites/treatment, diseases, electricity, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, animal behavior/compatibility and how all the different variables interact with each other. Both living and non-living. Unless you're keeping a goldfish in a bowl of tapwater - these other areas all come into play. Human behavior normally only comes into play in relating to others on this board.
For me, and many others on this great board, there is no other way to reply to a question.
You basically have 3 ways to look at it.
You either support your opinion either with personal experience, with science, of preferably both.
"Question"
Why is ________ happening to my tank or fish ?
>
Answer One - because it does and it's happend to me too.
Answer Two - because the event in question is dictated by science, and must happen in a particular way.
Here's why .... and here's how to change the outcome.
Answer Three - because the laws of science will not allow for it to happen any other way, and here's what I found helpful when it happened to me.
It's not scary - it can be very simple.
Not knowing is the scary part.
Science can help to explain the mystery.
Knowing why then .. people choose their own course of action.
Hobbyists share their own personal experiences.
Hopefull they support their experience with science.
We each go our own way from there.
Please realize that I am not saying everyone must understand everything scientific going on in their tanks, I certainly don't ...... only that by trying to do so can make problem solving so much easier, and understanding can allow for a better appreciation of the hobby.

 

[thakid2u]

lol This is getting reallly into areas that are very GRAY to all. TO begin with let me add 2 Cents about DETAIL. Broomer I agree with you that you need to pay attention to details about everything you do in life. There is one thing I would like to ponder on tho. Who is to say what water specs are right and wrong. I feel NOBODY. Unless we actually pick our own fish from the water and test this water within a 4 ft radius of where it was taken then we really dont know what water conditions are gonna make this fish happy and even this has a fault to it. Yes there are bases for this like a Blue-Faced Angel (Euxiphipops Xanthometapon) If I remember correctly, is Indo-Australian . We all take for granted that this water is the same as a fish like a Pakistani Butterfly, Which is thought to only be found near Pakistan. We actually dont know this, but we only know what we have read in a book or other stuff. So how do we really know that all the stuff we are doing to keep our water at certain specs is REALLY anywhere close to what the fish actually came from. I personally am trying to do some research on these different Specs. Let me tell you this is not the easiest thing to do yet. All in all I think we should get back to what the heck we came here to do. THAT IS NOT PUT OTHERS DOWN and GO BACK AND FORTH ABOUT WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG.....Or maybe some of us do...........

 

[marinetank]

Since this thread is about scaring away potential hobbyists who are in all likelihood newbies, I would just like to mention that I would like to see less use of abbreviations in the posts from experienced hobbyists.
For example I can remember when I first came to this board and did not understand the abbreviation 'lfs' which I now know to mean local fish store.
However, newcomers will not know this and will spend unecessary time trying to understand it.
Just my two cents on making this board more informative and easier to use.

"Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most"

 

[slothy]

Originally posted by marinetank
Since this thread is about scaring away potential hobbyists who are in all likelihood newbies, I would just like to mention that I would like to see less use of abbreviations in the posts from experienced hobbyists.

I AGREE, or atleast make the list of them a sticky

 

[beth]

There was a list made up awhile ago, and when we got the Newbie Forum, I stuck it up there, but for some reason it was unstuck.
I'll have to see if I can find it. Anybody remember the title of that thread?
There is no way that you are going to get folks who are used to discussions on BB's to stop using abbrevs. Can you imagine typing all that stuff out everytime you post!? When I talk to a new hobbyist who looks like they are really "new" and don't know that stuff, I do write it out and provide the abbrev.

 

[slothy]

https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/39855/slang-bb-acronyms

 

[beth]

Thanks! Let me take a look at it then I'll post a list up in the New Hobbyist Forum.

 

[eclipseagent]

LOL funny I read this because the "Unnaccebtable" line was used in my thread against me.
I didn't like how it was said but by being a member of over 10 different web forums I dont let the internet kooks get to me.