Serpent Stars... Help please.

[jdragunas]

OK, i don't have one yet, and i don't plan on getting one for at least a year (when i have my new tank setup), but i wanted to learn about serpents before i do anything.
Just a few questions:
1. It's going to be a seahorse tank, 35 Hex, 24" high & 20" across. I'll have about 45lbs of LR... more if i need it. Will a star be ok in a seahorse tank?
2. I've read that serpents will eat shrimp, which is why i'm not putting it in my current tank, but will they also eat snails? I want to have some nassarius snails, or something to sift my sand in the seahorse tank, but i don't want to get a serpent star if it's going to eat my snails too.
3. What do they eat? I did a search in the forums for info on serpent stars, but i didn't get anything on what they eat. Can i spot feed them?
I think that's it for now. These three questions should help me decide whether or not i will get one.
If the serpent is going to be a problem, is there another star that will go well in this tank? Or possibly any other sand sifters that will go well with this star?
Jenn

 

[sinner's girl]

1. I have no idea. My serpent has never bothered anything.
2. I've read that serpents will eat shrimp, which is why i'm not putting it in my current tank, but will they also eat snails? I want to have some nassarius snails, or something to sift my sand in the seahorse tank, but i don't want to get a serpent star if it's going to eat my snails too.
My sepernt never bothered a living shrimp. (I've had peppermint, camble back and cbs). It never bothered my snails either. The cc star is the one who knocked the snails off and sucked thier heads. It's big now, and it doesn't bother anyone, I have more of a problem with my arrow crab.
3. What do they eat? I did a search in the forums for info on serpent stars, but i didn't get anything on what they eat. Can i spot feed them?
Yep, I spot feed mine. I've never had a problem. Mine loves shrimp, raw. I give him about 1/3 a salad shrimp a week. Some say to feed him more often, but if I do, he just holds the food and doesn't eat it. I also fed him brine shrimp and bloodworms when I had fish, but that was messy. the fish and other inverts would clean up what the star didn't get. Sometimes Sinner gets a seafood mix from the store. I'll feed the serpent whatever is in that (raw, unseasoned of course). I can't think of what's in the mix though. Squid, and some other stuff.
I tried to give him a piece of algea, but I he didn't think that was funny. He came out when I was feeding the other inverts algea (they get fed more often) so I tried to give him a piece, he didn't take it.
My book says they will go unnoticed unless viewed at night with a red light...umm not mine. I see him all the time. I'm also seeing that most of the ophiuroideas need 50gl+ tank. I had mine in a 20 long for a while, then moved it to the 55gl, now it's in the 75.
Hope this helps. Try seahorse.org for more info on seahorses.

 

[jdragunas]

Yeah, seahorse.org is my 2nd home from here... lol. I'm pretty knowledgable about seahorses, but i'm not too familiar with stars. I had a brittle star once, but it died... not sure why.
Well, since seahorse tanks must be perfect, it'll probably be a good home for a brittle star.
So i can buy just raw shrimp from the local grocery store? I read they eat shrimp, clams, and squid. If that's the case, can i just buy raw clams and squid (if they have it) from my local grocery store?
I'm excited. I've wanted a star for some time now. Looks like i might be able to finally get one.
jenn

 

[sinner's girl]

Yep. I used to just buy a few at a time, but now I've figured out a method.
Get an ice cube tray, buy shrimp, add a water, add shrimp or whate ever, cover and freeze. I take a cube out, place in it a cup filled with tank water, let it thaw, then hold the shrimp in the water for a sec (this warms up the shrimp a bit and gets the inverts, mainly my serpent star, to come out.) I hand feed my serpent. And brittle, and cbs and arrow crab. Put enough in one cube for one feeding. Take out any uneatten food (though mine has never left any) Even when he wouldn't eat the food, he'd just hold it.
Do you want a brittle or seprent? I'd be careful about the brittle. I've heard some will eat slow moving or sleeping fish. My brittle never did that I know of (we did have a few fish dissappear, but I really don't think it was my brittle).
My stars have lived through a cycle. The serpent did better than the brittle. The brittle lost legs, but come back and was bigger.

 

[jdragunas]

I'd rather have a serpent. That's a great plan for the feeding! Thanks!!!
What about those packages of frozen krill you can get from the LFS, will they accept that? Can it be a whole shrimp, or do i need to cut it up into a few pieces?
Jenn

 

[ophiura]

An FYI:
There is no biological difference between brittle and serpentstars...it is a distinction made in the hobby only, and should no be used to determine behavior.
I have very aggressive brittlestars, and very passive ones...I have very aggressive serpenstars, and very passive ones.
It is always a tough call on what any individual species will do in a given tank. They are all generally quite opportunistic and if need be, most can and will take to predation. But I can not definitively say that any of mine have done so. Are there a lot of empty snail shells? Yes, but there is not a lot of algae, and I have lots of hermits too....am I missing one fish? Yes, but it was new in the tank as well. So far the shrimp has been fine, and I have 3 green brittlestars (known predators in the wild), and 8 others.
For general information (though a bit out of date), you can go to my website (click on my name above and go to my webpage). I haven't updated it in awhile but most is still accurate

I will be doing some sort of post on brittlestars in the not too distant future as well.

 

[dave_15]

Some stars are ok...serpents are
I heard that serpents dont eat shrimp somethimes same with the snails (i dont even think they eat them...correct me if im wrong)
You can do a brittle, linkia ect. nothin too big ( i heard of cc eating seahorses if they have a chance)
I had a brittle which ate brineshrimp

 

[sinner's girl]

NO LINKA!

will only live like a year and a half in a tank. Will most likely starve to death. Most won't accept foods you give them. They need large tanks and a ton of lr. Diet is unknown.
There is no biological difference between brittle and serpentstars...it is a distinction made in the hobby only, and should no be used to determine behavior.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
What about those packages of frozen krill you can get from the LFS, will they accept that? Can it be a whole shrimp, or do i need to cut it up into a few pieces?
Depends on the size of the shrimp and the size of the star. I give my serpent about 1/3-1/2 of a salad shrimp. Then sometimes another piece. I gave the brittle 1/2 (he was bigger). I give the brittle I have now about 1/3.
The frozen krill, I'm sure it'll eat. Just be carefull if it makes a mess. How big are the pieces of krill? The shrimp and squid the star can grap and hold on to. That's why I only feed the frozen brine or blood worms when I have fish.
What will you feed the seahorses? Live brine? Chances are it'll eat that too.
ophiura,

, the book I have says they need a large tank. Most 50gl or large. Is this true? (the book is Marine Invertebrates, by Robald Shimek). Also, could you suggest a good book on stars?

 

[ophiura]

Well, I've kept many brittlestars in significantly smaller tanks than recommended...and at high densities (I have at least 10 at the moment in a 45g and I say "at least 10" because several don't come out much and I never truly know that they are all still there). In the wild, you would commonly find several under the same rock. But larger tanks do mean more stable water quality and that is critical.
Really it depends on the tank, the hobbyists and what species. Several brittlestars stay on the smaller end...others (the greens come to mine) are simply monsters. Huge!
The book you mention is a good one, but I am biased as it lists my website as a reference

But Shimek tends to be pretty conservative in what can be kept and in what size tank, and I would tend to fall on that side of the fence as well at this point. There are very few if any "good" books on seastars. Most are pretty scientific and not related to the aquarium hobby. Those that are based on the aquarium hobby often contain outdated material. There are some very "pretty" books most notable "Sea Stars, Sea Urchins and Allies: Echinoderms of Florida and the Caribbean" by Hendler, Pawson, Miller et al. That has some very lovely pictures in it and info about species local to that area...but again, scientific not hobby.

 

[jdragunas]

Well, thanks for all of your information. I know definately not to get a linkia, and i wouldn't want a cc star either. I like the looks of the serpent stars better than the brittle. I was looking at another website, and i found a pink and red striped serpent. I was looking to get something like that.
As for the frozen krill they're about 1" or so in length.
As for the 35 gallon being small and difficult to keep the water quality, that won't be a problem, because the seahorses need perfect water parameters, or else... I'll be feeding them frozen brine shrimp with a powerdered enhancement (the website i'll buy them from guarantees they'll eat this, and they'll be eating when i receive the seahorses).
I really only want one, just because they're really neat looking. Do they dig in the sand at all? if not, then i probably won't have a problem with the nassarius snails, right? I don't plan on having a shrimp in that tank, so that won't be a problem either.
Thanks again!
Jenn

 

[ophiura]

What I am getting in the habit of telling anyone now is that there is always the possibility that any given brittle/serpentstar will be predatory depending on the species, the individual, the tank, feeding, etc. So do keep this in mind. If it is a major concern (eg you would throw the thing in the toilet and flush it), then I would reconsider. I have a large red serpentstar that I would consider pretty aggressive all in all (on par with the green brittlestars I have). It is just most important to remember they are following instincts, and may be combined with prey, or with things they would not normally encounter. They don't "know" the next meal is tonight at 7:30, and may not pass up something when they find it. When we are mixing up their ecosystem in a tank, it is hard to blame them or know what might happen.
Most are not particularly sand sifters or dig holes, though they may hide under a desirable rock.

 

[jdragunas]

Do you think even the most agressive one would eat a seahorse? Is that possible?
Jenn

 

[ophiura]

I would not say it is impossible. They may not physically be able to eat the hole thing, but, IMO, they could possibly catch one. I think that is within the realm of possibility

 

[jdragunas]

Well then forget that. I'm not gonna let some $20 star eat a $80 seahorse... uh huh... not for me...
Maybe i could do this... I could get the star first before anything, and put it in the tank with a cheap shrimp... maybe a peppermint or something. If he doesn't eat the shrimp, maybe he's not-so agressive. As long as i feed him enough, he should be ok, right? I had a brittle that never ate anything of mine... I'll have to think about this more!
Jenn

 

[jdragunas]

ok, i just looked at the "knobby star" on this website. What about them? Looks like it sticks to the glass, so it's probably only eat snails, and wouldn't be able to get to the seahorses, right? i'm not planning on having any turbo snails, only nassarius. Will the knobby eat shrimp? :notsure:
i wanna star...

Jenn

 

[ophiura]

IMO, the tank is too small, and with too little LR to support a reef safe seastar such as that one. I would be extremely hesitant even in a 55g with 75lbs of LR. These seastars often starve to death in smaller tanks without sufficient LR.

 

[jdragunas]

okey dokey artichokey! lol... I'll nix the whole seastar idea for now. Thanks for all of your help!!!
BTW, very nice website!!!
jenn

 

[sinner's girl]

My brittle (who is green , though I ordered a brown) stays under a rock. He never comes out. I know he is there because I can see his legs and I feed him, but I've never seen him anywhere else. My serpent moves arounds, finds a new home now and then.
If he doesn't eat the shrimp, maybe he's not-so agressive.
I never caught mine eating anyone. I keep them well fed though, but that doesn't mean they couldn't.
Sometimes you can't know unless you have the creatures. I was told my inverts would be fine, get along with each other and with fish. But I have an arrow, who may or may not be gone, that likes to pick on others.
I guess I wouldn't chance it. It just gives you another reason to set up another tank.
ophiura,

Thanks!

 

[jdragunas]

Originally Posted by Sinner's Girl
...It just gives you another reason to set up another tank...

Thanks everyone for your help!!!
Jenn