Sick of Cyano! Please help.

[tirtza]

I apologize ahead of time if this post is long, but I want to provide the most information possible so that I can get the best possible solution to my cyano problem. I've had my FOWLR set up for 6.5 months now (I'm still very much a rookie), and I've seen red spots show up in various places on the sand. Each red 'spot' is no bigger than a nickle but the number of spots is increasing.

I've tried numerous things to get rid of the cyano
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[*]
decreasing nutrients
[*]
decreasing lighting time
sucking it out with a turkey baster (this was such a mess, As I was sucking up the red slim/sand I kept sucking up a lot of water and then some sand would escape from the turkey baster before I could get it out of the water (thus probably spreading the cyano!)
I tried using a really thin stiff tube (to have more direct control over the tube and to keep from sucking up so much water. The stiff tube was attached to a really think flexible tube. As I tried this method of siphoning out the cyano the tubes just became clogged with sand.
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I'm really frustrated and I'm at my wits end!!

I'm sure there's a way I could siphon it out properly, I'm probably just not doing it right. Each time I seem to take it out, it pops up again the very next morning. I'm considering calling the guy who cleaned my aquarium when I was out of town and ask if he could perhaps come over and show me how I can correctly siphon out the cyano. If is actually willing to come over and show me this, I'm sure he'll charge the standard $60 per hour maintenance fee (1 hr minimum).
Should I have the maintenance guy come over and show me what to do?
Should I get a better protein skimmer (I've heard the BioCube ones aren't all that great)?
Am I feeding the wrong amount?
Please please please give me your thoughts and suggestions, I would truly appreciate it!
**Lastly I read this article on-line, that suggests ways to get cyano under control. I have no idea as to the quality and validity of information it provides and whether or not I should take the suggestions provided under the heading:
"Below are the suggested procedures for eradication and prevention"
websites link: http://netclub.athiel.com/cyano/cyanos2.htm
Please read it if you have time, and let me know what you think. Thanks!
Here's some information on my tank:
Equipment
29 gallon BioCube BioCube Protein Skimmer
2 Hydor Koralia 425 Powerheads digital thermometer
heater 36 watt power compact fluorescent daylight bulbs
LED Moonlights 36 watt power compact actinic bulbs
Refractometer

[hr]
Water Parameters
Specific Gravity = 1.025 Temperature = 78.4 - 79.8 pH = 8.2 Phosphate = 0
ammonia = 0 Nitrite = 0 Nitrate = 0

[hr]
Filtration
wet/dry filtration
I've slowly been removing the bioballs over the course of the past 4 months, a little at a time (right now there's less than 1/2 of what originally came with the BioCube)
Left/back chamber Middle/back Chamber Right/Back Chamber
Return Pump Filter Floss Heater
Blue sponge Carbon pad BioCube Protien Skimmer
1 Unit of Chemi-Pure Elite
1 small bag of Purigen

[hr]
Livestock
Fish Inverts
2 clown fish 1 skunk cleaner shrimp
1 Fire Fish Goby 1 Peppermint Shrimp
1 large scarlet hermit crab
4 Astria snails
6 Cerith snails
10 Nassarius snails

[hr]
Maintenance
Water changes:
I do a 20% water change every week I use Kent Marine Salt Mix + RO water water is prepared 24 hrs in advance
I rinse the blue sponge in old water I change the filter floss every 2-3 days I rinse the bag of Chemi-Pure Elite
I throw away two hand fulls of bioballs I clean the inside glass surface w/ a mag-float
Equipment:
I change the lights every six months I change the Chemi-Pure Elite every 5 months
I change the Purigen every 5 months I change the Protien Skimmer wooden air stone once a month
Food
I feed the fish 1 time a day. I mix together one cube of frozen Formula 1 and 1 cube of frozen mysis shrimp (sometime I also add some cyclops) in some RO water. I let the cubes thaw and then dump the water and thawed cubes in a fine mesh fish net. I further rinse the food with more RO water. I use a fresh garlic clove w/slits cut into it and place it in a little (shot glass size plastic container) of RO water. I add the thawed/rinsed food to the water and garlic in the little plastic container. I feed the fish with pinches of this mixture over the course of 3 days. The food is of course refrigerated. On the 3rd day, there is usually a little bit of food remaining and I throw it away.
Lights are kept on for 5 hrs a day, the moon lights are kept on constantly

 

[flower]

Hi, so sorry to hear of your frustration....You take better care of your tank than I do....The larger the tank the easier it is to manage, LOL...you could up grade.
First, you have phosphates but you're getting a false reading of 0, the cyano feeds on it and gives the false reading.
Why the garlic? Try just the mysis shrimp and just a tad of that, 3 fish do not need much to live on. don't worry about the inverts, if you feed them they won't scavenge as they should...except to get rid of the big scarlet hermit crab since it could pose a threat if it's big enough. Also I would not thaw more than I need at any one time. They do sell mysis shrimp in a flat block so you can use a butter knife to chop a small chip off to feed your 3 fish.
Mexican Turbo snails eat cyano, so add them to your CUC and some more nassarious snails.
One method to remove cyano} squeeze the bulb of the turkey baster (hold it closed) and put the tip against the cyano and release...you will suck up cyano and water...have a bucket with floss in it and release the baster contents into the floss, the cyano will be caught in the floss and you can return the filtered water back to the tank.
If the cyano is only developing in a certain spot or corner all the time, then you might have not enough water circulation to that one area. If that's the case, then to fix it adjust your power heads. I would get another skimmer, I personally didn't like the wooden air stone one. Since you have a sump (wet/dry) I would go with the Tunze nano skimmer, that little baby does it's job, I used it on my 30g with a 30g sump, and it was great.
I hope this helps you.

 

[tirtza]

Quote:
You take better care of your tank than I do.
Thanks Flower, but I doubt that I take better care of mine then you do, you have much more experience and knowledge! Almost everything I learned about maintenance came from this wonderful website and really helpful community of people
I would LOVE to upgrade, unfortunately right now we are renters on the 9th floor of a high rise apartment and I want my next tank to be a big one (somewhere between 120 - 150 gallons). My husband and I are saving to purchase a house and are expecting to move some time this fall. So first the house and then the big tank!!
Quote:
First, you have phosphates but you're getting a false reading of 0, the cyano feeds on it and gives the false reading.
Is there a better way I could get a more accurate phosphate reading? Right now I use a basic API water test kit.
Quote:
Mexican Turbo snails eat cyano, so add them to your CUC and some more nassarious snails.
Surprisingly, I don't have significant problem with any other type of algae in the aquarium. I used to have a hair algae problem but after a long battle I was able to completely get rid of it. I hired an aquarium maintenance guy, several weeks ago, to clean my aquarium while I was gone for 1 week. While I was out of town I cut back on my lights significantly (down to 3 hrs a day). When I came back all of the rocks had a significantly less amount of algae on them. Of course the cyano was still present!
Right now I'm actually a little worried that I may not have enough algae to sustain my CUC. Several days ago my Mexican Turbo snail died, and I suspect that it was from starvation. I also had one hermit crab die a month ago and one die a week ago. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with a lack of food? They were REALLY large Scarlett hermit crabs (the biggest I've ever seen, compared to any in several LFS that I've been to). Since they were obviously adults, I originally thought they had simply lived out their natural life span.
Why is there cyano but little green algae every where else? Is the death of my Mexican Turbo connected to this? Are the deaths of the two crabs connected in any way? This is all such a puzzle!
The cyano is only on the sand, not the rock, so would a Mexican Turbo still be helpful in this situation? The nassarious just seem to slide right over the cyano and don't really seem to stir up the sand as much as I had hoped they would. I started thinking that perhaps I would add a sand sifting star fish, but I'm not sure if this would just add to the cyano problem. My sand bed is 2" in some places and 2.5" in others. Is this a deep enough sand bed to sustain a sand sifting star?
Quote:
Why the garlic? Try just the mysis shrimp and just a tad of that, 3 fish do not need much to live on. don't worry about the inverts, if you feed them they won't scavenge as they should...except to get rid of the big scarlet hermit crab since it could pose a threat if it's big enough.
I currently spoil to the two shrimp and always make sure to spot feed them. I soak the food in garlic to provide the fish with extra vitamin C. I've read that it helps boost their immune system, helps ward off ich, and the fish go crazy for the food after it's been soaked. I'll definitely start cutting the cubes, so I waist less frozen food. If I switch to only feeding them mysis shrimp couldn't they get HLLE from not having enough variety in their diet?
Quote:
If the cyano is only developing in a certain spot or corner all the time, then you might have not enough water circulation to that one area. If that's the case, then to fix it adjust your power heads.
The cyano isn't solely developing in any particular spot or corner. However, I do see it developing more in the sand behind the rocks in the back of the aquarium. I could try adjusting the lower power head so that its facing the sand behind the rock work. Here's a photo from a month ago showing where the power heads are currently located.


Quote:
I would get another skimmer, I personally didn't like the wooden air stone one. Since you have a sump (wet/dry) I would go with the Tunze nano skimmer
Thanks for the suggestion, I will order one today!

 

[spanko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtza http:///t/390000/sick-of-cyano-please-help#post_3450815
Why is there cyano but little green algae every where else? Is the death of my Mexican Turbo connected to this? Are the deaths of the two crabs connected in any way?
The cyano is only on the sand, not the rock, so would a Mexican Turbo still be helpful in this situation? The nassarious just seem to slide right over the cyano and don't really seem to stir up the sand as much as I had hoped they would. I started thinking that perhaps I would add a sand sifting star fish, but I'm not sure if this would just add to the cyano problem. My sand bed is 2" in some places and 2.5" in others. Is this a deep enough sand bed to sustain a sand sifting star?
I currently spoil to the two shrimp and always make sure to spot feed them. I soak the food in garlic to provide the fish with extra vitamin C. I've read that it helps boost their immune system, helps ward off ich, and the fish go crazy for the food after it's been soaked. I'll definitely start cutting the cubes, so I waist less frozen food. If I switch to only feeding them mysis shrimp couldn't they get HLLE from not having enough variety in their diet?
Thanks for the suggestion, I will order one today!
In looking at the tank and the power head placement you might be better off having it one on the side about midway up the glass and about half way across. Then it would be hitting the rock a bit and causing some randomness, but also some flow blowing across bot behind and in front of the rock work. Nassarius are good for eating detritus and for stirring the sand bed underneath as they bury in the sand looking for food. Your snails may be starving as you don't have a lot of food going into your tank right now.
DO NOT GET A SAND SIFTING STAR. It will quickly decimate the micro fauna in the sand and cause more problems. It will also die in this size tank from lack of food.
You do need some variety in the food you feed your fish.
Frozen foods like mysis, chopped krill, cyclopeeze, cyclops, baby brine shrimp and you can even make your own food out of fresh seafood chopped up in a food processor.
Some will cringe here but I also feed Ocean Nutrition Formula Two pellets and Ocean Nutrition Formula One Flake food. Everything in moderation and a large variety.

 

[florida joe]

first are you sure its cyano can you post a clear up close pic of the red areas

 

[tirtza]

I'll move the lower power head as you suggested 'midway up...and halfway across' one of the glass sides. Does it matter which side of the aquarium it's moved to, the left side (the same side as the output nozzel) or the right side (the same side as the other power head)?
I certainly won't get a sand sifter, I definitely don't want to make things worse!
Quote:
You do need some variety in the food you feed your fish.
Frozen foods like mysis, chopped krill, cyclopeeze, cyclops, baby brine shrimp
I checked the ingredients on Formula 1
Quote:
Ingredients: Shrimp, krill, gel binder, spinach, clams, krill hydrolysate, sardine meal, plankton, salmon egg oil, squid, kelp, lecithin, casein, paprika, canthaxanthin, cod liver oil, astaxanthin, vitamins (choline chloride, ascorbic acid including stabilized Vitamin C, Vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, Vitamin B-12 supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, beta-carotene supplement, biotin), amino acids (dl-methionine, taurine, lysine), and trace elements of manganese sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, and sodium selenite.




Guaranteed Analysis:







Crude Protein*



13.0% min







Crude Fat



1.25% min







Crude Fiber



0.50% max







Moisture



85.00% max




It seems like a good variety, but there is also a lot of 'extra' stuff that might not be necessary. Do you still think it's a good regular source of food or should I only feed this particular food on a weekly or bi-weekly basis?
Quote:
you can even make your own food out of fresh seafood chopped up in a food processor
lol....if only you knew my amazing kitchen skills! I make an excellent bowl of cereal or sandwich My hubby teases me that I "cook more for the fish" simply because I thaw and rinse their food and soak it in garlic.....

Most importantly, how can I handle the immediate problem of the cyano that's already present?

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[tirtza]

For anyone that needs a laugh....
As I'm wrapped up in finding a solution to this annoying cyano problem, I've been venting to my hubby about it. He's starting to take a real interest in my hobby. Yesterday he very seriously made the following suggestion....
"Why don't you buy some new sand and QT it? Make sure the new sand doesn't have cyano. Then take out all of the fish, shrimp, snails, crab, and rock in the DT. Finally, take out all of the 'old' sand from the DT and replace it with the new cyano-free sand from the QT."
The scary part is...for a second.....I actually considered it

 

[spanko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirtza http:///t/390000/sick-of-cyano-please-help#post_3450832
Does it matter which side of the aquarium it's moved to, the left side (the same side as the output nozzel) or the right side (the same side as the other power head)?
Does not matter.
Do you still think it's a good regular source of food or should I only feed this particular food on a weekly or bi-weekly basis?
Everything in moderation and a large variety.
Most importantly, how can I handle the immediate problem of the cyano that's already present?

Regular water changes. Suck it out at water change time with an airline hose. Don't get right down in the gravel, just kind of hover over the top of it and it will suck up like a blanket. Plus the change in flow should help to keep uneaten food from settling in those places.

[hr]

 

[spanko]

Here is a write up I did quite some time ago on cyano.
Red Slime (Cyano Bacteria)
Cyano grows on top of nutrient rich areas of low flow. There are a number of things that need to be correct or possibly corrected to combat this without the use of chemical additives. The biggest thing is to get rid of the extra nutrients.
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Evaluate your feeding. If you are feeding more than can be eaten in about 1-2 minutes it is too much and the remainder of it is falling to the rock and sand and becoming nutrient.
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Evaluate your flow. If you have areas in the tank where there is little to no flow this can be corrected by adding power heads or repositioning the ones you already have. You don’t need to create sand storms just have water moving over the area to keep detritus suspended in the water column for removal by your filter – skimmer.
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Evaluate your water changes. The solution to pollution is dilution! You want to continually remove unneeded nutrients as well as replace those things that are used by the system. 10% weekly is a good change schedule. Some do 20% every other week and some vary the schedule from there, but a good start is 10% per week.
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Evaluate your lighting schedule. About 10 hours of daylight is all that is needed.
If you have a Cyano outbreak do the above 4 items and:
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At water change time siphon off the Cyano first. It will come up easily almost like a blanket.
After siphoning stir the affected areas a little to suspend any detritus for the water change and filtering - skimming removal.
Use a turkey baster on the rockwork now and at every water change in the future to again suspend the detritus for removal by the water change and your filtering – skimming.
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Keeping nutrient levels low to non-existent will help to avoid Cyano outbreaks and any algae outbreaks as well as keep your tank and you happy happy.
Hope that helps.

 

[flower]

QUOTE: I currently spoil to the two shrimp and always make sure to spot feed them. I soak the food in garlic to provide the fish with extra vitamin C. I've read that it helps boost their immune system, helps ward off ich, and the fish go crazy for the food after it's been soaked. I'll definitely start cutting the cubes, so I waist less frozen food. If I switch to only feeding them mysis shrimp couldn't they get HLLE from not having enough variety in their diet?
Your fish can't get ich unless the parasite was put into the tank from an infected fish, so you are just polluting the tank water to smell bad for no reason. The garlic and extra food you add...feeds the cyano. It does boost the immune system, but if you always do it, what will you do for them if they NEED a boost? Their system will already be saturated and it won't do them any good.
The reason for shrimp is so they will clean up the extra food the fish miss...if you spot feed your shrimp they are not hungry, they don't do the job you need them to do. They won't eat the extra food, the peppermint shrimp won't eat the aptasia and so on. There is more in the tank for your fish to eat besides what you feed them, the rocks are alive with tiny critters the fish pick at and eat all day long.
You don't have to ONLY feed them mysis shrimp, you can feed them a little mysis one day, and another type of food another day...you only have 3 small fish. I would never feed pellets or flakes. You could even feed them brine shrimp as a treat one day of the week and you can make your own food, just don't feed too much. Remember..3 small fish is all you want to feed.
The extra phosphate that feeds the cyano is coming from the extra nutrients in the uneaten food. You don't need a fancy test for phosphates, you just need to starve the cyano and make sure there is enough water circulating in all areas to keep any nutrients from pooling in one spot....
Snails die, the same thing you did to get rid of hair algae is what you need to do to be rid of cyano. Turbos eat cyano,and other algae, nassarius snails move the sand and eat extra food the fish waste.
One other thing that can help....Macro algae in a refugium will suck the phosphates and nitrates out of the tank as it feeds and grows, so the bad algae starves.

 

[tirtza]

Quote:
first are you sure its cyano can you post a clear up close pic of the red areas
Here's some pics Florida Joe, what do you think??

 

[tirtza]

Okay, so I just spent the whole evening fighting this (insert expletive) cyano. I siphoned out as much of the cyano as I could using a turkey baster. I still ended up taking out quite a bit of water. I tried to filter the water/sand through filter floss but I was still afraid to poor that same water back into the aquarium just in case it has cyano spores. Is this actually something I should have worried about?
I also moved one of the power heads to the left glass sides of the aquarium. I was able to place it mid-way up, but not half way across the side because the rock work was in the way and it wouldn't have fit there. So I had to place it behind the rock work, hopefully it will increase the water current back there.
I'm replacing the skimmer asap and cutting back on the food as well.
The 'Before' pictures are in my previous posting. The "After' pictures are below...

 

[flower]

You did a good job cleaning it up, but I don't see any red at all, to be honest I think over feeding is the cause in your case. Cyano does not spread like hair algae with spores. The filtered water through the floss would have been fine but a small "water change" is also helpful.
If you take a stick and tie a nylon string to it...move it around in the tank, if the string goes flat you have a dead spot...it should wiggle in the water flow. Not all areas will have the same flow but all areas should have some flow. It's an easy way to double check to make sure of no dead spots.
Looks like maybe you could add a little more rock but with the power heads re-adjusted and cutting back on the food, you should be seeing improvement.

 

[cam78]

you may not believe this but its because of your powerhead pointing down. I don't care what anyone says, Cyno thrives in areas of high flow. if you move that powerhead or shut it off you cyno will start going away. point it directly at something and you'll see cyno will grow there quickly.

 

[tirtza]

Quote:
Looks like maybe you could add a little more rock
Would this help with get rid of the cyano, aid the bio-filtration, or would it just be cosmetic? I'm still interested in adding 1 or 2 more fish and a little coral so I'm worried about making it crowded in there if I add any more rock. What do you think?
Quote:
you may not believe this but its because of your power head pointing down
The power head wasn't originally pointing down towards the back, in fact it wasn't even on the left side. I just moved it this evening. Check out the pictures towards the beginning of the discussion thread. You'll be able to see where it originally was placed. I could angle the power head up a little if you think it would help?

 

[tirtza]

Flower - is this the Tunz Nano DOC protein skimmer you were talking about?
http://www.***********.com/ps_viewitem.aspx?idproduct=TZ5311&child=TZ5311&utm_source=adwordsfroogle&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=adwordsfroogle&utm_content=TZ5311
It sounds like a great skimmer (it costs around $156), so it's a little out of my price range...
What about this one?
AquaticLife Internal Mini Skimmer 115 $59.99
http://www.**************.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+23714&pcatid=23714
Or this one?
Hydor Slim-Skim Protein Skimmer $118.99
http://www.*****.com/product/116669/Hydor-Slim-Skim-Protein-Skimmer.aspx?CoreCat=LN_FishSupplies_ProteinSkimmers
Or this one?
Instant Ocean SeaClone Protein Skimmer $85.89
http://www.*****.com/product/1893/Instant-Ocean-SeaClone-Protein-Skimmer.aspx?CoreCat=LN_FishSupplies_ProteinSkimmers

 

[spanko]

I use the Aquatic Life Mini Skimmer 115, around $60. Works well. Meowzer has one too you could ask her how it is working in her tank.
And to your point Cam......

Here is the entire article for your review. A good read as it talks about many of the contributors that relate to a cyano bloom. Relates to fresh water and the drinking water industry but would also be the same for the cyano in our tanks.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=in0ZQptRkqgC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=does+water+flow+inhibit+cyanobacteria+&ots=dd0RzA6niN&sig=iROMuprGiPfM_GwyovcWaxEDVak#v=onepage&q=does%20water%20flow%20inhibit%20cyanobacteria&f=false

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///t/390000/sick-of-cyano-please-help#post_3450983
I use the Aquatic Life Mini Skimmer 115, around $60. Works well. Meowzer has one too you could ask her how it is working in her tank.
Oh yes, I forgot about that one, I have it in garage...I went with the Tunze nano becaue my tank was a little big for the Aquaticlife when I factored in the sump water too....It works really well, the cup is a little small, but it's a good little skimmer.

 

[florida joe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAM78 http:///t/390000/sick-of-cyano-please-help#post_3450972
you may not believe this but its because of your powerhead pointing down. I don't care what anyone says, Cyno thrives in areas of high flow. if you move that powerhead or shut it off you cyno will start going away. point it directly at something and you'll see cyno will grow there quickly.
I fully agree about cyano and flow I have always been able to identify cyano by its feathery movement in areas of good flow

 

[spanko]

You agree that cyano thrives in areas of high flow?????????????