SPS Deteriorating.

[veni vidi vici]

Since the switch from my 75 to my 125 ive been haveing problems with all of my sps "STN" it starts off with them starting to bleach then slow death.
Here are my parameters:
RO water
Ammonia:0
Nitrate:0
Nitrite:0
Calcium:420 ppm
Alkalinity:3.5 meq/l
Magnesium:1350 ppm
PH:8.3 consistent
Temp:80-81 deg.
Phosphate :unknown
SG:1.026/refractometer
I drip Kalk 24/7 and have sump/fuge light running 24/7.
I also am running a phosphate reactor with Pura Phoslock.
Lighting:3-250w 20k mogul, running 6hrs/I just shortened time from 10 hours because i thought this was the problem.
Flow consists of a Dart CL system with under 2' of head for aprox. 3600 gph ,Rio 2500 return pump aprox. 500gph,2-modded MJ1200 aprox.3200gph for a total of 7300 gph . None of the affected coral have direct flow.Water is either deflected off glass ,surface,or into open space.
No sign of critters either,Red Bugs,Nudis,Flatworms,or crabs.
My other critters are some assorted LPS ,some Zenia and Zoas.
Fish:1- GBM ,2 false percs,1 lawnmower blenny,1-firefish, 3-cardinals and 1-Naso Tang.
Inverts:2 peppermint shrimp,assortment of snails,1-brittle starfish.I recently had a Purple tip anemone that died in my fudge before i could trade it in at my LFS.I ran carbon and still am, did a 20% water change.But the SPS problem started before this occurred.
The only thing i can think of is either i ts time to change RO filters and membrane.BTW it is a little past time for this.However i have a dual stage Add-on DI unit in route with built in TDS meter so im waiting to change RO filters and membrane until i can see what my current TDS reading are.
Or maybe its my water change containers that im using,2-Mighty Tuff 32 gallon trash cans.But i think this is unlikely.
Anyone else have any ideas here?
TIA

 

[trippkid]

I just saw this on --, looks like all your parameters are good, sorry no real good advice, other than possibly still a flow issue. I run almost 9000 gph total water movement in my 120 and still think it could use a little more. How much does your Alk fluctuate from day to day. Usually only my wild colonies give me troubles with things like this, I usually just frag what is left and hope for the best. I just had to frag a wild one, the fragged parts are doing well, we'll see if they start to encrust a base within the next couple of days. Again, sorry I don't have an exact answer here, hopefully someone has a little more input. I'll keep my thinking cap on. Good luck. Oh, I know the temp. range is acceptable, but I run my tank between 75-77(may slow growth some, but not so close to temp threshold, IMO). Since lowering my temp. I have had better results with some of the wild colonies, still some will go through something like this.
Matt

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by trippkid
http:///forum/post/2728508
I just saw this on --, looks like all your parameters are good, sorry no real good advice, other than possibly still a flow issue. I run almost 9000 gph total water movement in my 120 and still think it could use a little more. How much does your Alk fluctuate from day to day. Usually only my wild colonies give me troubles with things like this, I usually just frag what is left and hope for the best. I just had to frag a wild one, the fragged parts are doing well, we'll see if they start to encrust a base within the next couple of days. Again, sorry I don't have an exact answer here, hopefully someone has a little more input. I'll keep my thinking cap on. Good luck. Oh, I know the temp. range is acceptable, but I run my tank between 75-77(may slow growth some, but not so close to temp threshold, IMO). Since lowering my temp. I have had better results with some of the wild colonies, still some will go through something like this.
Matt
My alk with the kalk drip drops from like 3.5 to 3.2 over a 2 week span.My calcium holds steady as does my PH.As far as my temp 80 is as low as it gets without a chiller.I have a 6" fan blowing across the surface and a 29 gallon kalk water reservoir gravity feed top off that drips pretty steady to keep the sump level consitant.

 

[trippkid]

yeah, I know all your numbers are where they should be, and that Alk drop is minimal. Mine drops almost .5 daily, I use two-part from Brightwell for now until I get a CA reactor(very soon). I dose MG, SR, and Iodine daily also. Have you tested for strontium, it does play a role in tissue recession/ regeneration, just a thought. I'm sure I'll be thinking about this all day, so if I can come up with anything else, I'll be sure to let you know. I too have some Xenia, zoa's, shrooms(I'd like to get rid of them and see if this has anything to do with the problem in my tank, I also need something to eat all the Apitasia, tried everything just about, they always come back in full force, Copperband or Racoon Butterfly I guess is my next fish).
Matt

 

[veni vidi vici]

Well Matt,
Ive just had some light shed on the situation.Appearently its not a good idea to run Phosphate removers if there is no phosphate in the water column.You know where to look if you care to read it.

 

[saltn00b]

i didnt read that veni as i almost never log into --, but i have a phosban reactor, and when my PO4 has been at zero for a month or so, i switch fill it up with carbon and up the flow.

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
http:///forum/post/2728871
i didnt read that veni as i almost never log into --, but i have a phosban reactor, and when my PO4 has been at zero for a month or so, i switch fill it up with carbon and up the flow.
I didnt seem to be a problem until i changed tanks.I guess with all the fresh saltwater and the addition of two hundred pounds of rock my tank became sort of nutrient sterile,and running phosphate media never let my sps feed. So now that i have shut down the phosphate reactor i hope that my sps will recover.Ill just feed and hope that they are not goners just yet.
I think i learned something today...Nutrients in water = Good.....Excessive Nutrients in water=BAD.....No nutrients in water = Bleaching ,Dieing SPS

 

[saltn00b]

i hope you have full recovery too.
when you add fresh LR, the calcerous, porous rock acts like a phosphate sponge. especially when you are adding a massive amount like 200#.
once the water was pretty much PO4 free, the media probably started deteriorate. just a guess at that part.

 

[gatorwpb]

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2728886
I didnt seem to be a problem until i changed tanks.I guess with all the fresh saltwater and the addition of two hundred pounds of rock my tank became sort of nutrient sterile,and running phosphate media never let my sps feed. So now that i have shut down the phosphate reactor i hope that my sps will recover.Ill just feed and hope that they are not goners just yet.
I think i learned something today...Nutrients in water = Good.....Excessive Nutrients in water=BAD.....No nutrients in water = Bleaching ,Dieing SPS
I had never heard that about the phosphate remover, havnent been on -- in a couple days. BUt it makes sense.
But if you have truly achieved a ULNS, or at least LNS, then maybe its time to start dosing AAs?

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
http:///forum/post/2728892
i hope you have full recovery too.
when you add fresh LR, the calcerous, porous rock acts like a phosphate sponge. especially when you are adding a massive amount like 200#.
once the water was pretty much PO4 free, the media probably started deteriorate. just a guess at that part.
I think at this point im just going to have to feed heavily for a few days and see what happens.Im sure my fat hog Lawnmower Blenny and Naso will be very very happy.

 

[trippkid]

Sounds like a place to start, I hope you can get them to recover. The salt thing I would also look at. Why did you switch? I use the RSPC salt also, I used Oceanic when I started the tank up a little more than 3 yrs. ago, had some of the same issue with my SPS, I just figured it was something I was or wasn't doing. I can't say for sure as I didn't know alot about SPS at the time and not a whole lot of flow in the tank, wasn't dosing, etc.. If you don't see results after awhile, I would be inclined to switch back and see what happens.
Again, good luck and I hope you start to see an improvement.

Matt

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by trippkid
http:///forum/post/2729071
Sounds like a place to start, I hope you can get them to recover. The salt thing I would also look at. Why did you switch? I use the RSPC salt also, I used Oceanic when I started the tank up a little more than 3 yrs. ago, had some of the same issue with my SPS, I just figured it was something I was or wasn't doing. I can't say for sure as I didn't know alot about SPS at the time and not a whole lot of flow in the tank, wasn't dosing, etc.. If you don't see results after awhile, I would be inclined to switch back and see what happens.
Again, good luck and I hope you start to see an improvement.

Matt
I just cant see it being the salt,Im sure there are alot of people using it without this problem.I switched because thats what my LFS started to carry ,in order for me to go back to RSRP i would have to order it.
I hope i can salvage some of my SPS but i would be happy just to know that this was the problem and now its fixed.

 

[trippkid]

Agree, I wouldn't think the salt could be the issue, again just something to think about if you don't see any improvements or continue to have problems. Not sure what food you are using for the corals, does it contain amino acids for them. It does help with regeneration. I use stuff from Brightwell mostly, I only dose food about once every two to three weeks, I did see less problems with my SPS when I did more frequently, but ended up with algae getting a little too much for me, so I backed off for a while and started having some tissue recession on two of the wild colonies I have(the one I said I fragged and one that is still in good shape and starting to regenerate the dead areas). I need to find a happy medium for my tank with the feedings. Again I hope your issue has been solved and things start healing up, just try to keep any algae that may start to grow on the skeletons/tips off of them. Good luck.

Matt

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2728849
Well Matt,
Ive just had some light shed on the situation.Appearently its not a good idea to run Phosphate removers if there is no phosphate in the water column.You know where to look if you care to read it.

This hobby is allways changing....I never have PO4 show up with my test kits and even got the $$$ LaMotte. So is a little PO4 OK now or just not good to run media with 0 PO4??

 

[veni vidi vici]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2729185

This hobby is allways changing....I never have PO4 show up with my test kits and even got the $$$ LaMotte. So is a little PO4 OK now or just not good to run media with 0 PO4??
I dont think the issue is PO4, I think its about GFO and running it constantly.

 

[veni vidi vici]

What else might iron oxide hydroxide do? Biological effects
Quite a large proportion of aquarists using GFO in reef aquaria have reported undesirable effects on corals. These reported effects include tissue recession and bleaching. Many advanced aquarists have associated these effects with the first addition, or with a later change, of the GFO. While many or all of these reports may be coincidence, there are enough reports that aquarists should be wary. Listed below are a number of possibilities that may be the cause:
1.
A sudden drop in phosphate may stress certain organisms. This stress might be particularly important to corals with algal symbionts. The level of symbionts existing in a coral may depend to some extent on the availability of nutrients. A sudden drop in nutrients may imbalance the organism, leaving it with too many zooxanthellae for the newly-reduced nutrient levels. Especially if these corals are already living on the edge of survival, such stress may tip the balance toward disease.
2.
In some cases, phosphate levels may drop below natural seawater levels, and phosphate may become the limiting nutrient. If this limitation is severe enough, corals and other organisms using phosphate may well be stressed, stop growing, and become more susceptible to disease.
3.
Similar effects may result from a drop in certain trace metals. Since the effects of GFO on trace elements have not been clearly established in aquaria, it is possible that one or more critical elements may drop below optimal levels.
4.
The release of soluble iron hydroxide itself may irritate certain corals, although many aquarists dose chelated iron without such effects. The iron hydroxide may, however, nucleate the precipitation of calcium carbonate in sub-optimal places, such as tissue surfaces. It may also bind directly to tissues.
5.
The GFO may actually release certain metals other than iron from its surface. I have not seen any data on the chemical purity of these materials, and such issues may be a concern with some or all brands.
6.
The drop in alkalinity and/or pH caused by abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate would not be expected to be very great in most aquaria, and typically isn't especially large, as reported by the aquarists themselves. In the cases from which I've seen data, the effect is not as great as the variability between aquaria or between dosing events in many aquaria. Still, such changes might be important in some circumstances where conditions are already marginal.
7.
Since GFO binds organic materials, the addition of a significant amount of fresh surface area may rapidly drop the dissolved organic levels. Such a drop may stress corals by rapidly increasing the available light levels, or by reducing a food source, or both.In order to minimize such difficulties, many aquarists start off using GFO more slowly than the directions might suggest. Such caution seems warranted in most cases.
In order to minimize such difficulties, many aquarists start off using GFO more slowly than the directions might suggest. Such caution seems warranted in most cases.
~RHF~

 

[trippkid]

Thanks for the additional info.

I don't use this stuff, but it is good to know.
Matt

 

[veni vidi vici]

Well,after 1 day of shutting down PO4 reactor i have much better PE on some of my SPS .Ill just have to keep an eye on them and hopefully i wont have to frag any of them or loose any.

 

[trippkid]

Great, I hope you are on the right track, just remember to keep the algae off of the dead areas and they should grow back just fine.
Matt

 

[cmaxwell39]

Stinks that you have had problems. Hope that you have figured out the problem and everything comes back for you. Keep us updated.