STOP the delivery of nitrates

florida joe

Well-Known Member
It seems that bio-balls and nitrate factories are the hot topic once again. So I had a thought. I am allotted 4 a year and this is my 3rd so please hear me out. Bio-ball can and will trap uneaten food. This uneaten food brakes down slowly, as we feed everyday the uneaten food accumulates and after some time we have a constant delivery of ammonia, which ultimately is converted to nitrates. Denitrification is a slow process, hence we find ourselves with nitrate reading when we test. Now for my thought. What if we stop the delivery of uneaten food to our bio-balls? How you ask? What if we turn off our return pumps when we feed? It seems like a win win situation to me. We feed less because we are not loosing any food by way of our overflow boxes. We are not delivering any uneaten food to our bio-balls. No build up of organic material to continually brake down.
See simple to me, but then again I am a simple-minded person. I am sure there are many reasons why my idea is crazy and I am sure I will hear them but until then I think it’s a good idea
 

crypt keeper

Active Member
bio balls suck. I have bio balls on my 40 breeder with a 12 inch eel and the trates read higher than my 150 with a 55 gallon sump fuge and skimmer. I also feed the eel every 4 days. I feed my 150 3 to 4 times daily. The filter on the 40 is gross after a few months while my sump on my 150 is crytsal clear and water is great. I only do monthly changes on both tanks. Im actually switching the 40 into a hob overflow sump system to get rid of the bio balls.
Again bio balls suck.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by crypt keeper
http:///forum/post/3119492
bio balls suck. I have bio balls on my 40 breeder with a 12 inch eel and the trates read higher than my 150 with a 55 gallon sump fuge and skimmer. I also feed the eel every 4 days. I feed my 150 3 to 4 times daily. The filter on the 40 is gross after a few months while my sump on my 150 is crytsal clear and water is great. I only do monthly changes on both tanks. Im actually switching the 40 into a hob overflow sump system to get rid of the bio balls.
Again bio balls suck.
ummm ok
 

bulldog123

Member
How long does it take without cleaning before the bio-balls become loaded. I know this is a generic question but my tank was setup in Jan and my bio-balls look brand new. I do very little cleaning of them if at all. I do have a pad filter above them in the trickle tray. Could this keep the extra food/material off of them or are they still to new? I started removing them a handful at a time months ago but stopped because of the explanation you have put forth. If I do start having a problem I know where to come because you are the only one pushing these thing.

You should not limit yourself on post. No one else explains it as you do. And the search button may as well be removed.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Oceansidefish
http:///forum/post/3119515
Sounds like a good experiment to me Joe!
Thanks. It seems to me if we cut off the amount of uneaten food introduced to areas of collection (bio-balls and filter pads) and just allow our live stock to convert it into ammonia we can slow down the build up of nitrates and give our denitrification a fighting chance
 
G

gwhunter

Guest
I actually was pondering this question myself. In my wet dry there's two separate chambers where the bio balls can go. I was thinking of add in balls to one side and lr rubble to the other. I still was going to run a filter pad in the trays above the chambers. This way I can see the results and if I need to take the balls out I can always add rubble to that side also.
Matt
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Bulldog123
http:///forum/post/3119526
How long does it take without cleaning before the bio-balls become loaded. I know this is a generic question but my tank was setup in Jan and my bio-balls look brand new. I do very little cleaning of them if at all. I do have a pad filter above them in the trickle tray. Could this keep the extra food/material off of them or are they still to new? I started removing them a handful at a time months ago but stopped because of the explanation you have put forth. If I do start having a problem I know where to come because you are the only one pushing these thing.

You should not limit yourself on post. No one else explains it as you do. And the search button may as well be removed.
Let me first give you a little tip if you don’t know it already. Do not fully cover your tray with blue white filter material. It can get clogged to the point where you may over flow your trickle filter at that spot.. I personally have had bio-balls in my trickle filter for over eight yeas and I can honestly say they went at least 5 years without cleaning. When I did clean them there was in fact not much build up. I as a matter of maintenance protocol clean ¼ a month now
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by GWhunter
http:///forum/post/3119534
I actually was pondering this question myself. In my wet dry there's two separate chambers where the bio balls can go. I was thinking of add in balls to one side and lr rubble to the other. I still was going to run a filter pad in the trays above the chambers. This way I can see the results and if I need to take the balls out I can always add rubble to that side also.
Matt
Matt we maybe getting a little off track here. My idea is to stop the uneaten food from ever getting to our sump
 

cranberry

Active Member
So, are we only talking about the detritus issues or other issues that make bioballs the infamous "nitrate factory".
 

cranberry

Active Member
... not the anaerobic/nitrate inefficiency?
I turn off my pumps. I made one of these so that I could switch it off for 30 mins say and then it would come back on WHEN I forgot.
Actually this is a newer somewhat prettier model... the ond one I made 10 years ago was quite the eye candy o_O

But wait.... we are not ADDRESSING the nitrate processing inefficiency or are we saying that's not an issue of the whole "nitrate factory" thing... that only detritus is the problem?
 

spanko

Active Member
Wow again I thought this was a basic husbandry type issue, reefkeeping 101 so to speak. I guess it need to be brought up from time to time for all of the new people and yes even for those who get carried away and forget. The basics to me are.
Turn off all filtering - overflows to sumps etc when feeding. Most do leave internal flow pumps on to make the "bait" - food - more attractive to the fish, and circulate the smaller particles to the coral so they can "eat" too.
Feed no more than can be eaten in a minute. Then feed again, no more than can be eaten in a minute, until you feel you have fed enough. The idea being little to no food falling to the rock and substrate.
Keep a good clean up crew for the stuff that does get away and the waste produced by the critters.
Ensure adequate flow to the substrate, rocks, behind the rocks, to try to keep detritus and uneaten food suspended.
Clean the filter materials on a regular basis so that they do not become a major part of your biofiltration.
Sump pumps and filters back on when the food is "gone".
The old car company adage about quality at the source applies here too. If you keep from adding those things that become mistakes down the road, you don't have to come up with the fixes to the symptoms that result!!!!
My input for what it is worth.
 

cranberry

Active Member
But see, I believe the elevated nitrates come from the inefficient processing... not the detritus issue.
 

spanko

Active Member
I would believe the opposite, the nitrates come from very efficient processing of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. The ammonia as we know come from decaying protein. Reduce the amount of protein allowed to decay will ultimately reduce the amount of nitrate realized. Joe has stated and I agree that the processing of nitrates is a slow process, I would add that most of our tanks are ill equipped to process nitrate in the first place. One of the reasons skimmers are beneficial. They take the catalyst, protein, out of the system before it has a chance to decay.
 

cranberry

Active Member
The beginning part of the process is efficient... the back end... not so much... IMO.
We will all agree a wet/dry filter with bioballs is a very oxygenated environment.
Ammonia is converted to nitrite by their aerobic bacteria nitrosomas....
The nitrite is converted to nitrate by their aerobic bacteria nitrobacter...
The nitrate is left hanging because there isn't a whole lot of an
aerobic bacteria to effectively breakdown the nitrate to gas.... in this environment.
Kind of like Lucy is the nitrate at the chocolate factory... the ammonia and the nitrite converters are very efficient on the first part of the assembly line and their is more of them.... there's only Lucy on the other end to receive..... the end result is chocolate spilling out everywhere.
 

spanko

Active Member
Agreed and that is part of what I understand this thread to be about. Instead of trying to correct the symptom correct the root cause, the addition of the protein that results in the nitrates.
 

uneverno

Active Member
ok, been following this with some interest, and got it 'til now.
I don't understand how clean bioballs can contribute to Nitrate production?
 
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