The normal flow of nitrates

[k6trouble]

Ok, I know that if you feed to much, have dead fish or decay in your tank, you will end up with Am->Nitri->and end result of high NITRATES. Got it. Understood.... However, with that said..... Let me tell you my current story:
Started new tank ( fishless method with live rock ).
Salt -> 1.024
Temp ->80
Live Rock ->10 lbs
Tank ->30 gals
1) Ammonia starts the entire process
2) bacteria eats the Ammonia and puts off Nitrites
3) another bacteria eats the Nitrites and puts off Nitrates.
4) Nitrates start to build up because you don't have any algae yet.(correct?)
5)If you have High amounts of Nitrates you will have a huge algae bloom and it will take off like crazy.So you keep doing water changes to keep your Nitrates down to 10-20
6)Your PH starts going crazy because your doing to many water changes.
so you add a little baking sodia (first researching and learning the correct way) and you get your PH back to 8.3-8.4
7)You ask local fish store how to control your Nitrates ( can I buy a plant to start eating the nitrates so algae won't take off). They recommend that I figure out what causes the nitrates?
-I change the filter ( only cotton insert )
-I've never feed my fish more than once every 48 hours, and only enough to be consumed within 10 minutes ( 100% consumed within 10 minutes).
-Only have two very very small clowns in the tank with one small crab.
-I talk to another fish store, they said don't worry about nitrates because theirs stays above 100. (WOW)
-I talk to another fish store, they said i'm feeding to much and I should cut it in half for a while ( CRAZY, this is on the edge of starving the poor things)
My nitrates are staying around 10-20. I change the water, they drop, in a few days its back at 10-20 and says there ( hasn't gone up past this yet).After 6 or 7 days I change the water again and it starts over again.
So.... How do you get these down to zero? How long does it take for algae to grow? How much algae does it take to handle the natural amount of produced nitrates? Should these ever be zero? If I'm going to move to coral and inverts... don't I have to get nitrates under 10? How does the above pet store keep corals with nitrates over 100???? Are they full of it, or will coral last for a few days in these conditions but are damaged in the long run.
I feel like the guy running around in a circle looking for a corner to **** in.
I am missing something, some little detail that I just haven't figured out yet.
PLEASE INFORM ME OF THIS MISSING DETAIL.

Thanks

 

[geoj]

Nitrogen Cycle
Constantly doing water changes is for the birds; I am basically lazy so over a two-year span I learned that you don’t have to do very many water changes. You do have to set your tank up so that this is possible; use a skimmer, maintain good oxygenated water with water movement, use additives to keep water element levels correct. I only do water changes one every three months if, nitrates, salinity, or alkalinity are off and cant be corrected by use of an additive. I am not saying to use an additive to lower nitrates that is what cured live rock is for.
Why live sand?
It provides the environment for bacteria, and contains the live bacteria. Two inches of fine live sand will provide Ammonification and Nitrification. If this bed of sand becomes clogged with waste it will start Anaerobic Ammonium Oxidation and Denitrification which is not Bad like many think, but hydrogen sulfide producing bacteria can be a problem. If hydrogen sulfide gas builds up in the sand and then is released in to the water by disturbing the sand the concentration may be harmful. If the sand bed is too thick you will get Anaerobic water and hydrogen sulfide gas. So keep the (two inches of fine live sand) clean and Anaerobic water will not occur in the sand. The use of fish and invertebrates to keep the sand sifting and unclogged gets easy over time. After a few years the sand becomes clogged with fine waste and you have to replace it.
Why cured live rock?
It provides the environment for bacteria, and contains the live bacteria. In the correct amount and thickness it provides Ammonification, Nitrification, Anaerobic Ammonium Oxidation and Denitrification. Now this is the trick we want some Anaerobic water deep in the rock so the nitrates will be dinitrogenated or changed into largely inert nitrogen gas. You will see bubbles on your rock this is not air it is mostly nitrogen gas, dinitrogen gas, and a little hydrogen sulfide gas. This gas is released in a constant manner not likely to concentrate and become harmful.
Ammonification
Nitrates are the form of nitrogen most commonly assimilated by plant species, which, in turn are consumed by heterotrophs for use in compounds such as amino and nucleic acids. The remains of heterotrophs will then be decomposed into nutrient-rich organic material. Bacteria or in some cases, fungi, will convert the nitrates within the remains back into ammonia. Needs oxygenated water!
Nitrification
The conversion of ammonia to nitrates is performed primarily by soil and water-living bacteria and other nitrifying bacteria. The primary stage of nitrification, the oxidation of ammonia (NH3) is performed by bacteria such as the Nitrosomonas species, which converts ammonia to nitrites (NO2-). Other bacterial species, such as the Nitrobacter, are responsible for the oxidation of the nitrites into nitrates (NO3-). Needs oxygenated water!
Anaerobic Ammonium Oxidation
In this biological process, nitrite and ammonium are converted directly into dinitrogen gas. This process makes up a major proportion of dinitrogen conversion in the oceans. Needs Anaerobic water!
Denitrification
Denitrification is the reduction of nitrates back into the largely inert nitrogen gas (N2), completing the nitrogen cycle. This process is performed by bacterial species such as the Pseudomonas and Clostridium. Needs Anaerobic water!
You see that a little Anaerobic water can go a long way to keep the tank clean, but if not kept in check hydrogen sulfide producers can be a problem! So keep the water moving and the sand sifting, add more cured live rock if your nitrates don’t zero out and only do as many water changes as your tank needs. Use additives to keep water element levels correct.
This method can be used in combo with other filtration methods, but like I said I’m lazy.
GeoJ

 

[geoj]

If you are going to add live rock you need to cycle it before you add it or have some proven method to deal with the waste.

 

[earlybird]

Originally Posted by GeoJ
http:///forum/post/2515718
Use additives to keep water element levels correct.
What additives do you use to replenish the other trace elements besides calcium and alkalinity?
I personally feel that water changes especially for his tank a 30g is all he'll need unless he crams a lot of SPS corals in there he shouldn't need any 2 part solutions or additives. 5 gallons a week or every other week.

 

[k6trouble]

Thank you very much.
I have been keeping my tank full ( up to bottom of my filter) so that the current doesn't push my fish around when they swim under it. I Need more aggetation to the water! (and probably more live rock).
Thanks

 

[chuckcac]

Originally Posted by earlybird
http:///forum/post/2515860
What additives do you use to replenish the other trace elements besides calcium and alkalinity?
I personally feel that water changes especially for his tank a 30g is all he'll need unless he crams a lot of SPS corals in there he shouldn't need any 2 part solutions or additives. 5 gallons a week or every other week.
+1 for earlybird....
i agree man, there is no way you can add all of the trace elements to your system that are replenished by water changes. magnesium, stronium, iodine, carbonates, Boron... etc. All of these things are replenished in the appropriate amounts when you do a waterchange....
k6trouble..... questions for ya;
1. what kind of filtration are you using? - you wrote 'change filter pads'...? leads me to belive you are using a regular powerfilter for saltwater...?
2. what kind of substrate do you have? - substrates like crushed coral will build up alot of nitrates
3. what kind of tests are you using? - some tests have been know to readd mitrateds 10 even if they are 0.......plus nitrates at 10 isn't really the end of the world.
4. if you are adding Baking Soda... are you testing for Alkalinity? - you dont buffer pH - you buffer alkalinity - plus when bufering alk - you need to concurrently be testing pH, Calcium and Magnesium - they are all related to each other.....

 

[shawnhardy]

Is live rock alone enough to keep nitrates at zero?

 

[98lude]

test your new water right after you mix the salt. sometimes the salt itself will be at 10-20 ppm.... and obviously if your new water is 10-20 ppm then there is no way u can make it lower through doing water changes

 

[geoj]

Originally Posted by earlybird
http:///forum/post/2515860
What additives do you use to replenish the other trace elements besides calcium and alkalinity?
I personally feel that water changes especially for his tank a 30g is all he'll need unless he crams a lot of SPS corals in there he shouldn't need any 2 part solutions or additives. 5 gallons a week or every other week.
I agree with you this was an old doc of mine.
The smaller the tank the more cost effective water changes are, but like you were saying, if you cram a lot of sps in you have to do more than water changes

 

[geoj]

Originally Posted by chuckcac
http:///forum/post/2516566
+1 for earlybird....
i agree man, there is no way you can add all of the trace elements to your system that are replenished by water changes. magnesium, stronium, iodine, carbonates, Boron... etc. All of these things are replenished in the appropriate amounts when you do a waterchange....
k6trouble..... questions for ya;
1. what kind of filtration are you using? - you wrote 'change filter pads'...? leads me to belive you are using a regular powerfilter for saltwater...?
2. what kind of substrate do you have? - substrates like crushed coral will build up alot of nitrates
3. what kind of tests are you using? - some tests have been know to readd mitrateds 10 even if they are 0.......plus nitrates at 10 isn't really the end of the world.
4. if you are adding Baking Soda... are you testing for Alkalinity? - you dont buffer pH - you buffer alkalinity - plus when bufering alk - you need to concurrently be testing pH, Calcium and Magnesium - they are all related to each other.....
This means you have not learned to do it yet.

 

[geoj]

Originally Posted by shawnhardy
http:///forum/post/2516794
Is live rock alone enough to keep nitrates at zero?
I a tank with no or very few need to feed animals can at 1lb to 1gal maintain 0 Nitrate over 2-3 years waste would build up. With a little cleaning you can keep things going. If it were a fowlr you would need much more live rock. So I would start at 1 to 1 and see what you can keep.

 

[geoj]

Originally Posted by earlybird
http:///forum/post/2515860
What additives do you use to replenish the other trace elements besides calcium and alkalinity?
I like additives that do all the work for you when it comes to correct ratios.
I am now using Seachem powdered additives there are others.
One thing is to use a formulated group of additives that work together.

 

[fats71]

Originally Posted by GeoJ
http:///forum/post/2517465
I a tank with no or very few need to feed animals can at 1lb to 1gal maintain 0 Nitrate over 2-3 years waste would build up. With a little cleaning you can keep things going. If it were a fowlr you would need much more live rock. So I would start at 1 to 1 and see what you can keep.

I have no idea what this means >?

 

[geoj]

Originally Posted by Fats71
http:///forum/post/2517650
I have no idea what this means >?
What do you not understand?

 

[k6trouble]

Originally Posted by chuckcac
http:///forum/post/2516566
+1 for earlybird....
i agree man, there is no way you can add all of the trace elements to your system that are replenished by water changes. magnesium, stronium, iodine, carbonates, Boron... etc. All of these things are replenished in the appropriate amounts when you do a waterchange....
k6trouble..... questions for ya;
1. what kind of filtration are you using? - you wrote 'change filter pads'...? leads me to belive you are using a regular powerfilter for saltwater...?
(I am using a whisper filter with only cotton, no carbon and i just added a powerhead with no filter)
2. what kind of substrate do you have? - substrates like crushed coral will build up alot of nitrates
(sand, dead when purchased)
3. what kind of tests are you using? - some tests have been know to readd mitrateds 10 even if they are 0.......plus nitrates at 10 isn't really the end of the world.
(I have a nice test kit that will show 0 nitrates, 10, 20, ( and I'm currently at 20)
4. if you are adding Baking Soda... are you testing for Alkalinity? - you dont buffer pH - you buffer alkalinity - plus when bufering alk - you need to concurrently be testing pH, Calcium and Magnesium - they are all related to each other.....
(I answered your questions in the quote)
(I got the alkalinity and pH under control, they look fine now. )
I just added the powerhead without any filter on it, hopefully that will stir things up a little bit. It has an option to adjust the amount of air that it adds. Should I turn this up and add lots of bubbles or leave it off. I read something a while back ( and can no longer find it ) about problems with air bubbles or air bubble rocks in saltwater tanks.

 

[1journeyman]

Water changes are absolutely neccessary, imo.
Unless you are testing for 40+ trace elements eventually adding additives will end up getting things out of balance. Water changes remove, across the board, old and dirty water and replace it with clean.
Anaerobic bacteria lives deep in the pores of live rock, or in the bottom of deep sand beds (4+ inches of sand typically). It converts Nitrates into Hitrogen gas (and O2 I believe).
In most aquariums, the most practical way to control Nitrates is to do water changes.