This irritates me....alot!

[darth tang]

I live in New Mexico. Currently the City of Las Cruces is having to go to court for their seal and the "religious" implications in it.
The town in spanish means The Crosses. So naturally the seal has three crosses on it. This is the problem, apparently 2 people in the city have a problem with the crosses on the seal and that the religious implications bother them. I have no problem with people distancing themselves from religion...In some cases I am for the removely of religious symbols from government related item...but not this one. It is a historical reference. The city was called The Crosses...so you put crosses on the seal. The city was also founded as a catholic missionary city. You can't change history which is what this represents.

 

[molamola]

A couple of years ago, Houston ISD tried to have the phrase, "Remember the Alamo," removed from the history curriculum because it might be considered racially offensive. I'm still trying to figure that one out :thinking:

 

[tizzo]

People are friggin' stupid. I wish I could go out and change all the things that "offend me" but I keep reminding myself that this is America and they can do what they want.
Ban 3 crosses, but wave the rebel flag and call THAT tradition!! I hate the rebel flag and that offends a lot of people but they keep it up. They should put 3

[hr]
people on the flag instead of three crosses, then it'll be art. Sheesh.
Next we will all hafta change our Preambles, cause God is in the word.
Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking
the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the
following Constitution
Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to
those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land
Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful
to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...
Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful
to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of
government...
California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California,
grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ..
Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound
reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy
Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates of their consciences.
Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful
to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty. establish this
Constitution...
Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine
Guidance ... establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful
to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He
hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on
our endeavors.
Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful
to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of
government.
Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the
Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our
dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this
Constitution
Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God
for our civil and religious privileges .. establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to
Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...
Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana,
grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties
we enjoy.

 

[tizzo]

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine . acknowledging with grateful
hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us
an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful
to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...
Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts,
acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator
of the Universe .. in the course of His Providence, an opportunity and
devoutly imploring His direction
Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful
to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution
Minnesota , 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota,
grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to
perpetuate its blessings
Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention
assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our
work.
Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound
reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His
goodness . establish this Constitution ..
Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty
God for the blessings of liberty. establish this Constitution
Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our
freedom . establish this Constitution ..
Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution .
New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural
and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own
conscience.
New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey,
grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so
long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our
endeavors .
New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of liberty .
New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful
to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North
Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for
our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our
dependence upon Him for the continuance of those
North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota , grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do
ordain...
Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our
common
Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order
to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty . establish this ..
Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I Section 2. All men shall be secure
in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of
their consciences..
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance.
Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island
grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath
so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing
South Carolina, 1778, Preamble We, the people of he State of South
Carolina. grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this
Constitution.South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to
Almighty God for our civil! and religious liberties . establish this

 

[tizzo]

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible
right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their
conscience...
Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas,
acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we
establish this Constitution
Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to . enable the
individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other
blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI . Religion, or the Duty which we owe
our Creator . can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual
duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards
each other
Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington,
grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain
this Constitution ..
West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of
West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God .
Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility .
Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful
to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this
Constitution ..

 

[tizzo]

Apperantly, it irritates me alot too!!

 

[jcrim]

I generally get annoyed when people get offended by little things too. But in this case I don't agree with you. Separation of church and state was crucial for our forefathers because of the religious tyranny and persecution that has and continues to occur. Government should not show a preference for one particular religion because America is supposed to be a "melting pot". I don't have a problem with the word "god" in the pledge of allegience but that is basically a generic religious term... doesn't show a preference for one religion over another. A cross is a symbol of christianity and should not be used to represent a state of this great country. That clearly shows a preference for one religion over another. The ideal/goal is one of equality not preference. There is enough religious intolerance in the world without our government perpetuating it. Religion is and should be a personal thing... not a government thing. While obviously these three crosses are not harming anybody just to look at them. But you might feel different if the symbol represented islam, judaism, even satanism. The issue is that the government should not intrude by favoring or displaying the symbol of one particular faith.

 

[tizzo]

See, now I am under the impression that God, the Christian God was the one that our forefathers tried to base this country on, but you have every right to believe in another or not even to believe at all. The pledge of allegience, those preambles of every state were, in my understanding, this countries, and the goverment's admitted authority.
The seperation of church and state was originated to keep the gov from "deeming" you a believer or not. It was not meant to seperate God and country. IMHO :happyfish

 

[jcrim]

Originally Posted by Tizzo
See, now I am under the impression that God, the Christian God was the one that our forefathers tried to base this country on,
This is where you're mistaken. Our forefathers created the constitution in the manner it is so that religion would not be legislated at all. They may have been Christians personally but had the foresight to realize that their new, progressive country would have a secular government. Part of the ideal was to change from the ways of historical England where the church was a political power as opposed to a place of worship.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by jcrim
I generally get annoyed when people get offended by little things too. But in this case I don't agree with you. Separation of church and state was crucial for our forefathers because of the religious tyranny and persecution that has and continues to occur. Government should not show a preference for one particular religion because America is supposed to be a "melting pot". I don't have a problem with the word "god" in the pledge of allegience but that is basically a generic religious term... doesn't show a preference for one religion over another. A cross is a symbol of christianity and should not be used to represent a state of this great country. That clearly shows a preference for one religion over another. The ideal/goal is one of equality not preference. There is enough religious intolerance in the world without our government perpetuating it. Religion is and should be a personal thing... not a government thing. While obviously these three crosses are not harming anybody just to look at them. But you might feel different if the symbol represented islam, judaism, even satanism. The issue is that the government should not intrude by favoring or displaying the symbol of one particular faith.
I was waiting for this. What you are missing is this. One the City's name is The crosses. Two it's history was a Catholic missionary settlement. Not only would you have to change seal, you have to change the city name.
If you wish to completely keep religion out of government, My state would have to change 50% of the city names. Like it or not, religion is a part of this country and my state's history. The seal isn't about religion, it is designed historically. Like I said, you CAN'T change or erase history because it doesn't fit in with your personal beliefs.
Another thing, I have seen a few Cities across the nation change their City seal due to religious implications, replacing the cross with a Pagan God............which incidentally is a religious Item as well....but I don't see anyone screaming about this after it is changed. Seems like a form of religious exorcism is going on in this country and it is aimed at Christianity in whole.

 

[jcrim]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
I was waiting for this. What you are missing is this. One the City's name is The crosses. Two it's history was a Catholic missionary settlement. Not only would you have to change seal, you have to change the city name.
If you wish to completely keep religion out of government, My state would have to change 50% of the city names. Like it or not, religion is a part of this country and my state's history. The seal isn't about religion, it is designed historically. Like I said, you CAN'T change or erase history because it doesn't fit in with your personal beliefs.
Another thing, I have seen a few Cities across the nation change their City seal due to religious implications, replacing the cross with a Pagan God............which incidentally is a religious Item as well....but I don't see anyone screaming about this after it is changed. Seems like a form of religious exorcism is going on in this country and it is aimed at Christianity in whole.
You make some valid points. In some respects, the constitution contradicts certain aspects of our society. Clearly religion cannot be completely eliminated from governmental action but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
What really bothers me is that religous intolerance has caused more harm and death in history than anything else. Even today, we have terrorism, wars, genocide, murder that is all justified under the guise of religion.
I think that religious tolerance is more important than preference. Education and respect for diverse religions contributes more to society than a "majority rules so deal with it" attitude.

 

[farmboy]

How about:
Spanish "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula", English: "The Village of Our Lady the Queen of the Angels of the Porciuncula River".
L.A. anyone? And no it's not Lower Alabama.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by jcrim
What really bothers me is that religous intolerance has caused more harm and death in history than anything else. Even today, we have terrorism, wars, genocide, murder that is all justified under the guise of religion.
Does that make the religion and it's symbols bad or the person using religion to further their greed and agenda bad? If you take away religion, do you think the person would stop what they are doing in general?

 

[dogstar]

Thats all in the Article One, There right to take their grievance to a court and allow the court to decide if three crosses on the great seal of the city of Las Cruces is goverment respecting an established religion or not. America at its best.

 

[jcrim]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Does that make the religion and it's symbols bad or the person using religion to further their greed and agenda bad? If you take away religion, do you think the person would stop what they are doing in general?
Religion is not bad but it is/should be a personal faith and not state sanctioned... very important on a personal level but not so much on a state level.
If there was no religion, there would be no religious extremists. History would be very different... no holocaust, no 9/11, no pearl harbor, no spanish inquisition, no pol pot, no persecution of native americans, no suicide bombers, etc.
One problem is that the state does not promote every religion. Diversity is not celebrated if the preference is shown to the majority, even by way of harmless symbols.

 

[keleighr]

Don't worry Darth.......I will behave!!!

I am not a religious person at all. Do not beleive that you have to go to church in order for God to hear you, don't beleive that a Sin is a Sin, don't beleive in hell, figure we are living in it right now.
But the nit picking going on is pathetic.
I agree that Religion and State should be seperate.......it's not gonna happen.
As long as nobody is forcing you to learn a religion, I don't care.
My daughter sings God Bless America at her school. (should be seprate from each other, School and church) but you know what......they aren't making her sit in a class and read a bible. No. Anyways my Grandpa used to say "Ah isn't that so nice of them (if we were at a game or somewhere that happened to play "God Bless America) to sing "God Bless the Queen for us!! Obviously he was British.
Images of crosses surround us everyday...............there are some things that just need to be let go of.

 

[farmboy]

Originally Posted by jcrim
Religion is not bad but it is/should be a personal faith and not state sanctioned... very important on a personal level but not so much on a state level.
If there was no religion, there would be no religious extremists. History would be very different... no holocaust, no 9/11, no pearl harbor, no spanish inquisition, no pol pot, no persecution of native americans, no suicide bombers, etc.
One problem is that the state does not promote every religion. Diversity is not celebrated if the preference is shown to the majority, even by way of harmless symbols.

I think those things would have happened in any event. Religion got the blame. Religion was just a tool. Look just under the surface and the real motives are there in each case.
The state isn't allowed to promote ANY establishment of religion. THe majority rules. Aren't we glad the majority protects the voice of the minority?

 

[tizzo]

Originally Posted by keleighr
Images of crosses surround us everyday...............there are some things that just need to be let go of.

I agree with you there...
Do some people REALLY get bothered by those 3 crosses posted by the highway when driving on a long trip??
I never really though about it before, but do those REALLY OFFEND people??
Cause if it's that easy, then I have a really high tolerance, LOL...

 

[farmboy]

Freedom OF religion. Not freedom FROM religion.
This country was founded by God fearing people. Some named their towns after religious Icons. Who are we to change these things? Do not live in "The Crosses" if you don't like the name.
Our immigrant(for the most part) fore fathers came HERE because they didn't like something over THERE(wherever that is). We allow for the minority to have a voice, but if we give up what WE want as a majority, where will we all go next?

 

[jcrim]

Originally Posted by Farmboy
THe majority rules. Aren't we glad the majority protects the voice of the minority?

Originally Posted by Farmboy
We allow for the minority to have a voice, but if we give up what WE want as a majority, where will we all go next?
This is very dangerous logic... these arguments may have been used historically to justify slavery, couldn't they? These arguments are currently used to fuel the hate groups in this country, aren't they? Think back through history... do you really think the majority protects the voice of the minority?
Especially regarding religion where the majority shouldn't rule. My point is that our society doesn't need to show favoritism or preference for religion, whether it is the majority or not. Religious beliefs are personal not public. Maybe in this respect I'm a little idealistic but why does it matter which religion is the majority?