Two returns?

[handbanana]

Hello,
I was wondering, If I split my overflow into 75% to my sump 25% to my fuge would I get another return? one for the fuge and one for the sump?
Im not doing a piggie back style where the fuge would simply drain into the sump from being above it so I was wondering how to go about the plumbing required for this. Two returns? one in the fuge with a ball valve to reduce flow back to the DT?
I apperciate the help, if any comes. Im pretty much at a loss as to how to do this one.
Thanks
Nick

 

[acrylic51]

If I'm understanding you correct you would need another pump to return it to the DT. It would be plumbed as your sump return.

 

[2quills]

How come you don't want to do the "piggy back" style?
IMO you might run into more problems doing it the way you are proposing to do. It's probably going to be rather difficult keeping the flow on the second pump adjusted properly. Too much flow going out will drain the return section too fast, and not enough will overlow the tank.
If you can piggy back them...I would deffinately do that. But we'll see what some other folks say.

 

[handbanana]

my plan was to run one of my 1" overflows directly to my sump. Then run the other 1" overflo to a 1" - 3/4" T with a 3/4" pipeing to the fuge. Below the T would be a ball valve or a gate valve to allow flow to be adjusted to the fuge, in theory.
I just installed unions and glued my plumbing to my overflow bulkheads due to leaking. So this is kind of an after thought of how I should have done it and Im trying to see if it can still be done.
I would like to do a piggy back style fuge but dont want to use plastic bins and unfortunatly ruined a large piece of acrylic trying to do a seamless bend with a blow torch.

So Im working with 3 ten gallons and a drilled twenty gallon. I dont have a glass holesaw anymore either.

 

[acrylic51]

I see an issue with your plumbing to the sump and fuge.....I understand your running (1) 1" line directly to the sump and the other to the fuge....You stated you put a gate valve on the line to the fuge. You can slow the flow to the fuge, but you can't divert the flow, so the real purpose of the valve? The backflow or unneeded water will back up into the overflow possibly causing the overflow not to be able to handle the flow, causing the tank to flood????
What I would have done is brought both bulkheads off the overflow to the sump and split the 1 line to the sump, using a "T" and on the output side of the "T" I would have put my valve to adjust the flow to the fuge.....That way the unwanted water would drain directly to the sump, causing no issues elsewhere.....JMO

 

[acrylic51]

I would like to do a piggy back style fuge but dont want to use plastic bins and unfortunatly ruined a large piece of acrylic trying to do a seamless bend with a blow torch.
That is a hard way and almost impossible way to do it....The torch puts to much heat to the material, to quickly.....You might have bent the material, but would almost bet it was crazed and would degrade the material structurally from the large amount of heat..... You might have asked your plastics dealer if they had a heater designed to bend the material....They work super.....

 

[2quills]

Originally Posted by Handbanana
http:///forum/post/3281439
I dont have a glass holesaw anymore either.
How come?

 

[bmkj02]

Get yourself a hole saw. Plumb the tanks together and use only one pump. I have a 20g sump and 29g refugium connected to each other and my return pump is in my sump area. Check out glass-holes dot com for good prices on hole saws.

 

[beaslbob]

I would be possible to have the sump/refug/plus any other numbers of containers each one having a return pump to your display.
And it should work just fine. Kinda

But It would be extermely unreliable and almost impossible to adjust.
For instance, if any of the overflows fails, The water normally overflowed there is now overflowed to all the other overflows. Additionall, the water above the pump intake in that container would be pumped to the display then overflowed to the other conatiners. So you would have to block each overflow and check that all the other containers do not flood.
But with one common sump You don't have that to worry about and can just do the normal power out/power return/overflow failure tests and adjustments.
If you don't want to drill a tank fine. Use pvc overflows.
Using plastic storage containers I have never had to bend acrylic. I just use bulk heads made from pvc reducing bushings and 1/4 rubber gaskets. The gaskets are cut with wood type hole saws from 1' square gasket material I bought for $5.
I also use the tops for the storage containers with the center cut out (except for a maybe center brace) as kinda a euro bracing to prevent bowing out. Or sometimes just cram it in the stand sideways so the stand supports the container sides.
IMHO try to keep it simple.
my .02

 

[handbanana]

I think you got it kinda right Acrylic. I want to do both 1" drains to my sump. I found this really awesome thin walled PVC that Im using because I think It would help, anyway I would have a T on one drain with the branch of the T being 3/4" to the fuge.
I thought the gate would have to be below the T because water would just flow right past the T taking the path of least resistance.
Thats my theory anyway.

Perhaps two gates?
I found out about the acrylic the hard way. I could have sworn I read that a blow torch could be used if the flame was feathered lightly slowly. Unfortunatly I did not to it correctly and warped the sheet, then snapped it trying to fix the warp. I figured I would bend the sheet into a 3 sided box and bond the sides on with acrylic glue. I wanted a nice clean box with out glue and seams all over the place. Oh well. I dont have a plastics dealer or the right equipment to really do anything fancy with acrylic.
I'm not doing the piggie back because I dont have the materials to make a decent stand and have some serious financial obligations to consider before I buy a bunch of wood and tools to make a stand. ( I will eventually

) Thats what sucks about that acrylic sheet. It was 1/4 inch and wasnt cheap. I could have made a bunch of stuff If I didnt screw it up.
My hole saw got taken from me when a friend who was borrowing it moved outa state. I will eventually get another but cant afford one right now. I know there cheap but thats the way it is. Im trying to work with what I have.
Does anyone know what kind of load a ten gallon can support vertically? If I was to stack a full fuge on top of a not full ten gal? Sounds like a bad idea to me but You guys seem to be DIY genius's so I hope to get some better ideas.
thank you

 

[handbanana]

Didnt see in there Beasle,
I'm not sure I understand the first part.
I don't understand the unreliable part either. Right now my overflow will only drain what my pump returns. why wouldn't this be the same way for my fuge?
Would it be more reliable in a piggy back situation if I uses two of the exact same u tubes, same in, same out?

 

[king_neptune]

Here is how I worked around that predicament:

The return is in the middle. I have independent flow going to either end. I can have more or less depending on needs. I like this method since It allows me just one return. Honestly i have my flow set to about 2/3 of max capacity(roughly 650gph). with a 50/50 split to each end. I believe a slow flowing fuge/sump is the way to go. You don't want water racing through it all.You want it to sit and stew a little.

Please note the stand pipes are taller since the photo was taken. This is to keep water from backing up and spilling out the top when I cut the water flow down. Right now both sides are wide open, so I get about 325gph going though each pipe. Plenty IMO. But if I want, I an trim down one or the other and still be ok.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by Handbanana
http:///forum/post/3281602
Didnt see in there Beasle,
I'm not sure I understand the first part.
I don't understand the unreliable part either. Right now my overflow will only drain what my pump returns. why wouldn't this be the same way for my fuge?
Would it be more reliable in a piggy back situation if I uses two of the exact same u tubes, same in, same out?
Noone ever said I was all the clear on anything.

Ok lets consider both designs. With these parameters:
2 overflows each one capable of handling the total overflow from all pumps and both set to stop draining at essentially the same tank level.
a 30g refuge maintained at 25g level pump runs dry at 3gallons.
a 10g sump maintained at 5g level pump runs dry a 1 gallon.
Now consder both pumps' intakes are in the sump section with the refuge draining to the sump.
Case one drain fails (breaks siphon, plugs).
analysis: water continues to flow down the other drain and the levels in the tank, sump, and refugium all remain the same.
Case two both drains fail:
Refug level remain the same. Sump level goes down to 1g so 4 gallons are pumped to the display. with proper adjustment the sump runs dry before the display floods.
So basically the two drains just provides redundancy to the design.
Now consider the same setup but with one drain to the refug and the other to the sump and pumps in the refug and sump.
Case: the refug drain fails.
Analysis: the refug pump continues to pump down to the 3 gallon level. so 25-3=22gallons of water is pumped to the display.
the sump overflow can handle that so 22 gallons are drained to the sump.
the sump holds 10g and is running at 5 so starts flooding after 5 gallons are drained. With 22 gallons draining the the sump 22-5=17 gallons overflow the sump and you have a 17 gallon flood around the sump.
So in order to prevent that, you would have to fail the overflow to each container and adjust the pump intake height in that container to prevent floods in the other containers. In this case set the refugium pump intake is high enough so it runs dry after only pumping 4 gallons or so.
So in order to prevent floods with overflow failures you not only have to insure the display does not flood but you also have to insure all the other containers do not as well.
Much easier to have the two drains to the refuge and have it drain into the sump.
Or at least having all the pump intakes at the sump. the drains could go to both with less flow to the refug.

 

[handbanana]

Yo King, that is a Bi##### sump! I dig that a lot,
Beasle, I have to go home and sip something and get back to you on this. I know you know what you are talking about. I just have to absorb it correctly....

I will post pics of my current setup, perhaps that will help. I cant see my DT overflow clogging, it has sucked down a turbo before somehow with no flooding. I will get back to this thread lickity split. just gotta go home and check some things.
Thanks again everybody...TTYS

 

[handbanana]

Ok Beasle. I understand you. That makes a lot of sense.
As of right now, I took down my twenty gallon sump. I have my DT draining into a ten gallon Refugium that has Cheato, about 2 inches of sand/coral and some LR. It then goes bact to my DT. Im not using my skimmer right now because it needs to be in a larger tank than half a ten gal and I think my twenty leaks.
So I know my turn over in my refugium is to fast to achieve anything and I want to move the fuge over to the next side of the stand and put a ten gallon sump with my skimmer in it in its place, having the 3/4" split from the overflow go to the fuge. Then have a return going from the fuge back to the sump.
Does that make sense?

 

[beaslbob]

have you checked the temperature? Your temp not the tanks. You might be sick if you understand beaslbob

If it were me I would have the refugium full of chaetomorphia with no sand or live rocks.
Above a very slow flow rate the flow through the refugium does not make any difference. What is important is the chaeto is exposed to all the tank's water to do it's stuff. Faster less contact while in the fuge but more turnovers through the fuge. By contrast if there were no flow through the fuge the fuge water would be good but the tank water would not be conditioned at all.
FWIW I don't use skimmers either.
Best tank ever.
my .02

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by Handbanana
http:///forum/post/3281808
Ok Beasle. I understand you. That makes a lot of sense.
As of right now, I took down my twenty gallon sump. I have my DT draining into a ten gallon Refugium that has Cheato, about 2 inches of sand/coral and some LR. It then goes bact to my DT. Im not using my skimmer right now because it needs to be in a larger tank than half a ten gal and I think my twenty leaks.
So I know my turn over in my refugium is to fast to achieve anything and I want to move the fuge over to the next side of the stand and put a ten gallon sump with my skimmer in it in its place, having the 3/4" split from the overflow go to the fuge. Then have a return going from the fuge back to the sump.
Does that make sense?
Two seperate returns from different unconnected containers will always end with a pump running dry or a wet floor.
I don't see how your current flow through the refugium is a problem in any way.

 

[handbanana]

Originally Posted by beaslbob
http:///forum/post/3281894
have you checked the temperature? Your temp not the tanks. You might be sick if you understand beaslbob

If it were me I would have the refugium full of chaetomorphia with no sand or live rocks.
FWIW I don't use skimmers either.
Best tank ever.
my .02
Well...I had to read it about 5 times. But I got it. I like the first scenario the best.
So I have the sand and LR in there to try to populate the fuge with pods for Lenny the Blenny. I think the pods like the LR, IDK that tho. Plus doesnt Cheato need substrait to root into? Or should it float around?
I could have sworn that I was told the slower the turnover in a fuge the better. Gives the macros more time to work. I think that having them in a high turnover fuge is better than not having them at all.
I like having a fuge. its interesting to watch.
And whats the best tank ever? Yours? Can we see? I would love to see some fuge pics.

 

[handbanana]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3281903
Two seperate returns from different unconnected containers will always end with a pump running dry or a wet floor.
I don't see how your current flow through the refugium is a problem in any way.
Bang, That is a relief and almost an honer to hear you say that.

So should I give my skimmer a sabatical and keep just the fuge or should I plumb another ten in and put my skimmer in that? How do I do it? Is Piggy back the only way?
I forgot to ask about lighting even tho its unrelated. I have my lights on in my fuge opposit of my DT. is this the correct way? or on 24 hours? Or on at the same time?

 

[bang guy]

There are dozens of flavors of setups that work great. What they all have in common is that the return pump works from the lowest container.
If it were me I would drill a 10 gallon for use as a refugium if you enjoy that size. It's economical and easy to set up. Instead of two returns I would split the overflow where water goes from the DT to both, the refugium and the sump with a straight line to the sump and a valve controlled offshoot (valve near the sump) going to the refugium. The refugium would, of course, drain into the sump and you'll want the sump to be large enough to accommodate your skimmer and enough surplus water that you don't have to topoff every day.
As for your lighting, 24/7 and reverse the display tank are optimal. 24/7 gives slightly better growth for macro algae but in my experience the difference in growth has not been worth the expense of the lighting so I recommend lighing the refugium only when the display is dark.
Macroalgae sequesters nutrients based on the concentration, not the flow rate. If the flow is really slow then they can pull nutrients out faster that the water is supplying them. I have found the minimum efficient flow rate to be at least 8X the container size but more flow increases the growth rate when nutrients are the limiting factor.