Using Grounding Probe on an Ungrounded Outlet

woody189

woody189

Member
Hi.
I just installed a GFCI receptacle. I only had a Hot and Neutral wire, and no ground in my house's wiring. I just purchased a Grounding Probe and was wondering where I can plug it.
I want to plug it into a surge protector that is plugged into the GFCI, but I'm not sure if that's okay. Also, I'm not sure if the probe will serve its purpose if the GFCI doesn't have a ground wire connected.
Also, I was reading 0.1-0.4 volts using the voltage meter, and it did not change after plugging in the probe. I know 1/2 a volt won't harm anything, but I was thinking that the probe would eliminate even this miniscule voltage if it were functioning properly.
Thanks.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
If your outlets arent hooked up with a ground wire then a grounding probe is going to do nothing for you. And pluging it into a surge protector wont help either since there is no secondary ground on the outlet in the first place.
Also if your thinking that a ground probe is supposed to be used to illiminate stray voltage then that would be incorrect. All it does is create a path to ground causing current (amps) to pass through the tank which some electrical enginers believe is a bad thing and most refuse to run them on their system.
A ground probe is for personal protection. Designed to be used to save you from being shocked if you put your hand in the water while a piece of equipment has malfunctioned and is leaking high voltage into the tank. They have to (I repeat) have to be used in conjunction with a GFCI in order to be of any use in this regard. And if there is no secondary ground on the outlet (other than the nuetral leg) then it's pointless to even purchase one.
 
woody189

woody189

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/392082/using-grounding-probe-on-an-ungrounded-outlet#post_3479803
If your outlets arent hooked up with a ground wire then a grounding probe is going to do nothing for you. And pluging it into a surge protector wont help either since there is no secondary ground on the outlet in the first place.
Also if your thinking that a ground probe is supposed to be used to illiminate stray voltage then that would be incorrect. All it does is create a path to ground causing current (amps) to pass through the tank which some electrical enginers believe is a bad thing and most refuse to run them on their system.
A ground probe is for personal protection. Designed to be used to save you from being shocked if you put your hand in the water while a piece of equipment has malfunctioned and is leaking high voltage into the tank. They have to (I repeat) have to be used in conjunction with a GFCI in order to be of any use in this regard. And if there is no secondary ground on the outlet (other than the nuetral leg) then it's pointless to even purchase one.
Good to know. I wish I would have realized that earlier.
I read a bunch of threads and everyone says that everyone should have a grounding, but make sure it's always used with a GFCI.
This is why I waited till I installed a GFCI to get the probe. I don't think I've seen a thread that said that a probe can't be used if there's no ground going into the GFCI.
Thanks again Quills
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
No problem. One thing to remember is that most hobbyists are not electicians so anytime you read a thread somewhere you have to take it with a grain of salt and try to seperate good info from the bad. Id say about 90% of the hoobyists I've seen believe that ground probes are designed for illiminating harmless low voltage potential because when they're hooked up correctly they see the voltage in the tank dissapear.
The truth is it doesnt dissapear. Voltage itself is harmless unless its given a path to ground. Once it has that then the electical current can flow to ground as amps and the amps are what shock you. GFCI devices work by sensing when there is a loss of current between the hot and nuetral leg of the device and will trip instantly the momeng it detects the slightest change. So the ground probe takes that leaking current from a defective piece of equipment and gives it an alternate path to travel therefor the gfci senses that loss and trips off.
You dont need th secondary ground wire in your wall in order for the gfci to work. Bit you will need it in order for the ground probe to do what its supposed to. If you notice the plug end on your probe utilizes the bottom hole (ground hole) on the outlet...that hole is where a secondary ground comes into play. So if one is not hooked up then the ground probe doesnt have th path to ground that is required.
Instead now what will happen in the event of an equipment malfunction when you go to stick your hand in the water your body will create a second path to ground and you will experience a quick shock for a split second before the gfci trips. Which in a worst case scenerio should still save your live. A ground probe causes the gfci to trip instantly the moment a piece of equipment fails saving you from any unwanted suprises.
HTH
 
woody189

woody189

Member
Real detailed. Thanks.
I understood the basics of what you explained from reading other threads. Also, from my understanding, you can have a lot of volts flowing through your water column and the fish may be fine and it's not until you stick you hand in that you receive a shock and the GFCI trips.
I didn't think that a grounding probe was used to eliminate harmless stray voltage. I thought that if one was installed, the stray would be reduced. But the main purpose is if there is a faulty piece of equipment, I would be safe.
Either way, I don't really know much about electrical currents and such (as you can tell) and I'm glad you enlightened me a bit. It's good to know that I can't use a grounding probe with my set up and I appreciate your help.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
If you realy realy want to use it you can always run a ground wire from your electrical panel to the gfci. But I realy wouldnt recommend it to anyone who doesnt feel compitent in doing so because I dont want to see anyone getting hurt in the process of attempting it without knowing how to cut off all power going to the panel first. But there are other options out there for someone who's dead set on having one on thier system.
The theory behind why most expeienced electrical folks dont want to use them is because some believe that by adding one it gives that harmless voltage potential the path that it needs in order to allow the electrical current to flow. And most believe that even though its a very small amount of currentit can (in some cases) be enough to dissrupt the electrical sensory perseptions of certain livestock in our tanks. Some critters have built in sensors to detect electrical pulses given off by prey. And if that were to be dissrupted then conversions have led to questions that this could be a stressor for livestock.
 
woody189

woody189

Member
I'm not gonna stress it. Checking voltage with a meter is so simple to do, I'll probably just do it every other water change or something. I'm not going to go through the trouble of running a ground and stuff. If I did the research, I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem doing it, but I think a GFCI and regular testing should suffice.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Instead of running a grounding wire from your electrical box, you could simply drive a metal rod with a bolt welded to it, and then wrap a copper wire around the bolt and tighten it down with a nut... then run the copper wire through your wall or underneath your carpet into your electrical outlet box and install the ground wire.
As a side note, GFCI units do not have to have a ground wire in order to cut off excess amounts of electricity. It will still save your life, even if it isn't grounded. Heck, they have saved my life at least four times already. lol
I wouldn't install a grounding probe on the tank... like Corey has suggested - it does provide a path for electricity to flow which may or may not cause the GFCI Unit to cut off.
 
woody189

woody189

Member
Thanks. I think I'm just going to stick with my GFCI and perform bi-weekly voltage checks. Good to know I have options in the future though.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/392082/using-grounding-probe-on-an-ungrounded-outlet#post_3479869
I wouldn't install a grounding probe on the tank... like Corey has suggested - it does provide a path for electricity to flow which may or may not cause the GFCI Unit to cut off.

The ground probe is something that hobbyists are just going to have to decide for themselves. In my particular situation, it's just my wife and I in the house (no kids). So no one else is going to stick their fingers in the tank other than me. If things were different then I'd consider running one for my families sake.
I do run GFCI's on my current system now and will continue to do so on any future set up. I am, however, trading a little bit of my own personal safety in an effort to not burden my system with any more stress than absolutely necessary. That fraction of a second it takes for the gfci device to trip can (in some cases) still be enough to cause serious injury or death for anyone who may happen to have a heart condition and or possibly utilizing a pace maker.
So I've made a conscious decision not to run the ground probe for a particular reason. But I've also taken more than my share hits from 120v in my line of work and I'm still here. Not that it's anything to brag about, just gotta know your situations when it's most likely to kill you or just wound your pride. It's better than having no protection IMO.
Also, to answer your question the answer is no. Any potentially minuscule amount of current that would flow from Induced Voltages coming from power cords, lights, heater, pumps..etc. would not be coming directly from the Hot supply wire coming into the device (persay). So the neutral side wouldn't really register any loss. Now in the event of an actual failure then, yes...it should trip (with a probe).
 
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