vegies for hlle--hhmm!
- Thread starter 03
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fixitdude2001
Member
Cool , keep us posted on this, hope we never have to deal with that tho. We have had enough problems for a lifetime,dont need anymore, but would like to know if this comes up.....cya
fixitdude2001
Member
Cool , keep us posted on this, hope we never have to deal with that tho. We have had enough problems for a lifetime,dont need anymore, but would like to know if this comes up.....cya 
03
Member
The occurrence of head and lateral line erosion, (HLLE) is a common problem with certain reef fish, particularly tangs and surgeonfish. We experienced and epidemic amoung our blue tang (Acanthurus coeruleus) population six years ago,(1989), in our 25,00 gallon reef exhibit here at the Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium. Other surgeonfish were affected, but the angelfish in the exhibit were not.
Water quality was dismissed as a likely cause of the problem. Good water quality was maintained by a combination of use of sand filters, ozone, and periodic water exchanges with saltwater mixed from Instant Ocean sea salt. We do not use activated carbon. Normal nitrate levels were maintained in the range of 15 to 20 milligrams per liter ,(mg/l), Nitrate Nitrogen , (N03-N). pH averaged 8.25 and salinity was 32 parts per thousand, or a specific gravity of 1.023. At the onset of the HLLE, salinity was dropped to inhibit parasite reproduction, in case this was the cause. The erosion continued and salinity was eventually brought back up to 1.023.
In reviewing other possible causes for theis malady we next focused on possible dietary deficiencies, because no obvious pathogens were found. Our fish were receiving a varied diet including romaine lettuce and spinach. Initially we tried elevating the level of vitamin C by incorporating a supplement into a gelatin based food, but this had no effect. We next considered supplementing the level of vitamin A. According to the Applied Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 852, "One of the most important functions of vitamin A is to maintain the integrity of the epithelial cells....As a result, surfaces of the skin and membranes lining all passages that open to the exterior of the body, as well as glands and their ducts, are susceptible to disease." This was the basis for trying increased amounts of vitamin A after the vitamin C supplement by itself failed to produce results. It was our feeling that the laining of the lateral line ducts had deteriorated.
We were concerned with the possible toxicity of high vitamin A levels that has been reported for certain animals. Upon reviewing the nutritional value of different types of lettuce, we found them to be very low in nutrients and began researching the nutritional value of other green vegetables. Spinach appeared to be higher than lettuce, but it does not hold up well in sea water. Carrots were found to be a good natural food, but they had to be shredded and were quite messy to feed. Still, we fed carrots solely for six to eight weeks and observed a resolution of the HLLE. A more complete literature review made broccoli an obvious choice. It is well balanced in many vitamins in addition to the high level of vitamin A, and also has other features that make it acceptable. It holds up very well in the aquarium. Many fish like the flowerettes when they are first added. Only the larger fish could break open the woody layer on the stalks, but once opened small fish feed on the softer pulp material. We replaced the carrots with broccoli, and we are currently using it as a well-balanced maintenance diet.
After replacing the lettuce diet with first carrots and then fresh broccoli, the HLLE improved to the extent that only a few scars remained on the most severely affected fish. After nearly eight years in the exhibit, most of the original batch of blue tangs are still alive. Broccoli, supplemented with peas and other prepared foods, dominates the diet. No HLLE sypmtoms are evident in any of the fish in the exhibit.
Water quality was dismissed as a likely cause of the problem. Good water quality was maintained by a combination of use of sand filters, ozone, and periodic water exchanges with saltwater mixed from Instant Ocean sea salt. We do not use activated carbon. Normal nitrate levels were maintained in the range of 15 to 20 milligrams per liter ,(mg/l), Nitrate Nitrogen , (N03-N). pH averaged 8.25 and salinity was 32 parts per thousand, or a specific gravity of 1.023. At the onset of the HLLE, salinity was dropped to inhibit parasite reproduction, in case this was the cause. The erosion continued and salinity was eventually brought back up to 1.023.
In reviewing other possible causes for theis malady we next focused on possible dietary deficiencies, because no obvious pathogens were found. Our fish were receiving a varied diet including romaine lettuce and spinach. Initially we tried elevating the level of vitamin C by incorporating a supplement into a gelatin based food, but this had no effect. We next considered supplementing the level of vitamin A. According to the Applied Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 852, "One of the most important functions of vitamin A is to maintain the integrity of the epithelial cells....As a result, surfaces of the skin and membranes lining all passages that open to the exterior of the body, as well as glands and their ducts, are susceptible to disease." This was the basis for trying increased amounts of vitamin A after the vitamin C supplement by itself failed to produce results. It was our feeling that the laining of the lateral line ducts had deteriorated.
We were concerned with the possible toxicity of high vitamin A levels that has been reported for certain animals. Upon reviewing the nutritional value of different types of lettuce, we found them to be very low in nutrients and began researching the nutritional value of other green vegetables. Spinach appeared to be higher than lettuce, but it does not hold up well in sea water. Carrots were found to be a good natural food, but they had to be shredded and were quite messy to feed. Still, we fed carrots solely for six to eight weeks and observed a resolution of the HLLE. A more complete literature review made broccoli an obvious choice. It is well balanced in many vitamins in addition to the high level of vitamin A, and also has other features that make it acceptable. It holds up very well in the aquarium. Many fish like the flowerettes when they are first added. Only the larger fish could break open the woody layer on the stalks, but once opened small fish feed on the softer pulp material. We replaced the carrots with broccoli, and we are currently using it as a well-balanced maintenance diet.
After replacing the lettuce diet with first carrots and then fresh broccoli, the HLLE improved to the extent that only a few scars remained on the most severely affected fish. After nearly eight years in the exhibit, most of the original batch of blue tangs are still alive. Broccoli, supplemented with peas and other prepared foods, dominates the diet. No HLLE sypmtoms are evident in any of the fish in the exhibit.
Hey, Mark, what a small world....I read that same article, which is where I got the info about carrots. And, I agree with you, that carrots are kinda hard to get fish to eat in smaller hobbyst aquariums because our fish are a lot smaller than what you find in public aquariums.
My thought is that the public aquarium referenced in the article had large [fully sized] surgeonfish, thus the fish were able to gobble down the shreaded carrots because of their bigger mouths. A few months ago, I started preparing fresh foods for my fish, which includes finely shreaded carrots. I shread the carrots using the finist option on a hand-held shreader, then food process it with the other fresh foods that I prepare. Even so, no effect on HLLE for my remaining hippo tang .
Now, get this. About 6 wks ago, my hippo started territorizing his other less agressive tank mates. I removed him to a very small QT setup with powerhead only, the hippo's fav rock, 50% main tank water, and 50% freshly mixed water. I figured that the tang would suffer cause of the significant reduction in tank size as well as the lack of filtration.
NO! Within a week I noticed the hippo's severe HLLE improving. By the time I returned him to the main tank [about a mo later], HLLE had improved by 50%. Within a week of his return to the main tank, HLLE deterioation was noticed, and now, it is back to where it was before I moved him. I did nothing to the QT special--did a small water change only 1X week...Go figure???
[ April 29, 2001: Message edited by: Beth ]
My thought is that the public aquarium referenced in the article had large [fully sized] surgeonfish, thus the fish were able to gobble down the shreaded carrots because of their bigger mouths. A few months ago, I started preparing fresh foods for my fish, which includes finely shreaded carrots. I shread the carrots using the finist option on a hand-held shreader, then food process it with the other fresh foods that I prepare. Even so, no effect on HLLE for my remaining hippo tang .
Now, get this. About 6 wks ago, my hippo started territorizing his other less agressive tank mates. I removed him to a very small QT setup with powerhead only, the hippo's fav rock, 50% main tank water, and 50% freshly mixed water. I figured that the tang would suffer cause of the significant reduction in tank size as well as the lack of filtration.
NO! Within a week I noticed the hippo's severe HLLE improving. By the time I returned him to the main tank [about a mo later], HLLE had improved by 50%. Within a week of his return to the main tank, HLLE deterioation was noticed, and now, it is back to where it was before I moved him. I did nothing to the QT special--did a small water change only 1X week...Go figure???
[ April 29, 2001: Message edited by: Beth ]
Jimi, per the advise I got from this BB, particularly you and Steve, I bought both Zoe and Zoecon. The 2 fish seemed to improved health wise with the addition of the supplement, but it had no effect on HLLE. Something going on in my tank causing it.
Oh, and before anyone asks, I tried the grounding probe too, and that didn't work.
Oh, and before anyone asks, I tried the grounding probe too, and that didn't work.
jimi
Active Member
Beth its hard to say what is causing it and depending on the severity scars could be perminant. I have noticed when I run carbon my purple starts to get hints of it. So I dont run it anymore, maybe it takes too much trace minerals out they need. I too have always used a grounding probe and dont believe it has anything to do with hlle. Again I have had dramatic healing of my purple and emperor with the seaweed. I also use Selcon that may have helped. My emperor has what I believe to be a perminant scar on his nose but his sides and around his eyes are perfect. I think the white nose of adulthood will mask the scar.
03
Member
well i don't run carbon at all and some of my fish got it so i don't know if that is the problem either,my yellow tang and my emporior have it the naso and the sailfin nor the achilles have it i don't get it!! heywhat were you talking about your post about the center support on your tank did you melt it?
No, no, it didn't melt....sorry, I obviously wasn't too clear about that.
My bow-front aquarium has a plastic support which is supposed to hold up the 2 glass cover panals on either side of the tank.
Now, I've been considering upgrading on lights, but it occurred to me if I put hotter lights on this tank that that center panal would melt! I'm glad that occurred to me before I ended up buying lights.
My bow-front aquarium has a plastic support which is supposed to hold up the 2 glass cover panals on either side of the tank.
Now, I've been considering upgrading on lights, but it occurred to me if I put hotter lights on this tank that that center panal would melt! I'm glad that occurred to me before I ended up buying lights.